Whose Planet Is It Anyway?

Tuesday, February 24, 2009

Abuse and Behaviorism

Disability rights groups such as TASH and NDRN have been seeking to bring more attention to the serious problem of restraints, seclusion, and other abuse of students with disabilities in America's schools. Among other approaches to dealing with this problem, they have suggested implementing positive approaches to discipline in schools and school districts. They have cited Positive Behavioral Supports (PBS) as an example of such an approach.

These disability organizations are not advocating the use of PBS as a treatment for autism. Rather, they are suggesting that school-wide and district-wide programs, which are called PBIS (this stands for Positive Behavioral Interventions & Supports) and are intended to apply equally to all students, can improve the overall disciplinary environment and thereby help to prevent abuse and bullying of students with disabilities.

The Autistic Self Advocacy Network has been considering whether, and to what extent, it should support anti-abuse initiatives that promote the use of PBIS programs. Because the behavioral assessment methods used in PBS/PBIS have their roots in ABA, which has a long and sordid history of shoddy research and unethical practices when used as a treatment for autism (as thoroughly documented by Michelle Dawson on her website and blog), some members of the autistic community have questioned whether ASAN should support such initiatives.

The disability organizations that favor the use of PBIS are not relying on the ABA/autism research literature to support their position, however, but on data showing reduced disciplinary incidents among the entire student body in schools and districts that have adopted PBIS programs. Whether or not ABA should be used as a treatment for autism is irrelevant to an analysis of the use of PBIS for general disciplinary purposes. Moreover, many school districts do not even employ psychologists to run these programs, but instead arrange for district personnel to receive training from PBIS consultants. A school district that has a PBIS discipline program is using that program for purposes unrelated to autism and, in most cases, is not employing anyone who has ever used ABA as a treatment for autism.

Of course, in evaluating the effects of PBIS programs on students with disabilities, there are other factors that should be considered in addition to disciplinary incident data. It would be helpful to interview autistic students and their families regarding their experiences with such programs, taking into account a broad variety of quality of life issues. Also, as Ed discussed in a recent post, behavioral programs in the schools should "be critically scrutinized in order to see that their direction is productive and encourages more creativity rather than fewer freedoms."

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105 Comments:

  • Personally I think that if the school doesn't have a trained person on site or at least on call (I'm talking about a psychologist or even just a social worker) then they aren't looking after the needs of students on the Spectrum properly. School Districts in the US have a tendency to put their budget first - hence the training giving to teachers and the like. It's a crock - especially if the problems for the Autie are complicated (and mostly they are).

    PBIS is a tool, and whilst it may have benefits in general it should be focused on the bullies. If it's being promoted like that, then I don't have a problem with it. But if it's used as an ABA substitute (and that's a case of misusing said tool - like trying to use a butter knife on a block of ice, or using a jackhammer on a wooden chair) it's not on.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 6:17 PM  

  • I can understand the concerns... but I wish staff in my district had training on some sort of intervention and support other than a half-day training on how to restrain (CPI). Regardless, undertrained, underpaid, and undervalued staff are left to their own devices and judgments with these kiddos in school...yet we (society) blames the kids for being "dangerous."

    By Blogger Ange, at 6:48 PM  

  • We are pushing legislation in MO not stating it has to be PSIS, though I am guilty if showing that as an example of "intervention."

    By Blogger Ange, at 6:49 PM  

  • I like the Jackhammer example Timelord.:)

    I can think of several considerations I'd like to see.

    1) How are schools who evaluate behavior of children showing that they see that as something other than criminal and how will they show that this PBIS differentiates between the two.

    2) If PBIS wants to market the approach as separated from the stigma of how ABA has been used in abuse cases, I think it's up to them to make their case for that.

    3)If they don't and ABA is to be seen differently, let the practitioners (in support of this "new" all-inclusive method) describe how ABA has changed to rid themself of the bad elements of their reputation.

    By Blogger Ed, at 7:09 PM  

  • "yet we (society) blames the kids for being "dangerous.""

    Ange, that's scapegoating. How can we blame the kids when they don't know what they're doing? Stupid practice and a great way for parents to avoid responsibility.

    By Blogger Matt Hogan, at 8:05 PM  

  • Matt, I'm not sure if you misunderstood my comment or I'm misunderstanding yours--since I am a 'parent'? I too am criticizing the scapegoating done by society at large and am saying exactly "How can we blame the kids when they don't know what they're doing? " That's why I have been fighting this R&S issue since my son was placed in one in kindergarten a few years ago. The districts are still pushing that they are using them as a last resort (they use them every week if not every day at multiple schools) and we are trying to show the kids were set up to fail and were then punished for 'failing'. And by 'failing' I mean not being successful in the regular setting wthout supports. The district is perpetuating the "out-of-control stereotype" and they are just trying to "keep them safe". I just pulled my son out of the school district and said to the district "How many times would you have to fail before you gave up? This isn't 'noncompliance behavior'...this is him communicating "why won't anyone listen to me?" Meanwhile we teach our son how to decompress with strategies, we show him tools to help him accommodate when needed, we are flexible, and we set him up for success...throwing him in an empty room and not letting him come out until he 'calms down' doesn't make sense.

    I should state I am pushing legislation to ban seclusion rooms (padded cells/isolation) in our schools in Missouri, I'm not pushing legislation to force PBS.

    By Blogger Ange, at 9:03 PM  

  • My response is here.

    By Blogger Michelle Dawson, at 10:11 PM  

  • Matt,
    "How can we blame the kids when they don't know what they're doing? "

    That's a good attitude to have when talking to Timenut.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 10:16 PM  

  • That comment could only have come from a child, Foresam!

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:19 AM  

  • Anon, there's no point trying to use the usual types social reinforcers with that one; he's basically a social incompetent. Nothing changes his behaviour - he is incapable of behavioural change. That's just who he is, was and always will be.

    Sad truth, but a truth it is.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 5:02 AM  

  • Best, Matt was talking to Ange and not me. Just to bring you up to speed with reality....if you can hack it that is!

    By Blogger Timelord, at 5:33 AM  

  • Phil (to someone not really worth the effort): "Just to bring you up to speed with reality....if you can hack it that is!"

    You think he can???

    Edit: The only reason that piece of shit is hanging around here is for his usual purpose of derailing discussion and debate and turning the whole thread into a pissing contest. He will contribute nothing to the thread and he'll just bring it downwards to his particularly low level of intellectuality and civilisation... a sad thought, really. He has nothing to contribute, so it's no point talking to him.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 6:53 AM  

  • Sanity Pending,
    The only way to deal with autistic kids needing to be restrained is to cure the autism so restraints aren't needed. Otherwise, for the difficult cases like Phil, padded timeout rooms are best so they don't hurt themselves.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 7:28 AM  

  • This is why I don't lurk on this blog so much anymore... the posts are quite thought-provoking, but trying to read the discussion of them is pure garbage anymore, let alone trying to comment because it gets lost in a slinging match. I can appreciate that many of the people who comment on this blog know each other so maybe they don't mind, but there are also people who come here to read information or share thoughts, and I think it takes away from the site's intelligence and credibility to see people who should know better goading someone who is clearly a troll. It renders any sort of discussion about the actual topic meaningless.

    By OpenID hand2mouth, at 11:40 AM  

  • "The only way to deal with autistic kids needing to be restrained is to cure the autism so restraints aren't needed. Otherwise, for the difficult cases like Phil, padded timeout rooms are best so they don't hurt themselves."

    Derailment attempt.

    Useless.

    Back to the discussion.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 3:48 PM  

  • David said;

    Derailment attempt.

    Useless.

    Back to the discussion.

    I agree. So with an attempt to rerail with a question....

    I was most concerned by Senator Dodds speech which explained how the use of restraints had been reduced in his state for prisnors and those in mental institutions by a bill similar to the one he was advocating for doing the same in public schools.

    I have personally seen and been affected by these attempts to end exclusion with one-size-fits-all programs. I see that as dangerous.

    I would like to know (maybe from you David if you are willing) if Skinner or another behaviorist has ever described the limitations of using such an all inclusive behavioral approach or if this is what the founders envisioned.

    By Blogger Ed, at 5:48 PM  

  • "The only way to deal with autistic kids needing to be restrained is to cure the autism so restraints aren't needed."

    Which can't be done. Next suggestion, John? How about discussing the topic? Or is Timelord right and you can't "hack it"?

    By Blogger Matt Hogan, at 6:20 PM  

  • Ed: "I would like to know (maybe from you David if you are willing) if Skinner or another behaviorist has ever described the limitations of using such an all inclusive behavioral approach or if this is what the founders envisioned."

    I could look that up over the next couple of days, and see what the relevant literature says. I think Skinner would have agreed that not all methods work for everyone, and that the way in which people's behaviour is 'shaped' should be in as naturalistic a manner as possible. We should actually remember that Skinner's concern was with behaviour but that he acknowledged that 'private' events had significant influence on what would work as reinforcements, for example. As he said: "The way positive reinforcement is carried out is more important than the amount" (my italics). It's not enough to give a kid a Smartie or a mindlessly-said piece of useless praise; inclusion isn't about giving everybody the same thing... it's about responding to each person's individual needs in an appropriate manner. At least, that's my understanding of it. And I think - based on quotes such as the one I gave there - Skinner would have agreed. I don't know what he encountered of an 'inclusion concept' whilst he was alive, so anything he said regarding inclusion (viz-a-viz, all-inclusive behavioural approaches, however one could define such a thing) would be a response to his own understanding of that.

    Myself, though, I am not a behaviourist - although I refuse to throw babies out in bathwater: I see some merit in much that the behaviourist gives us, and I think that - if used properly and ethically - the principles of behaviour analysis can be of some use to professionals in working with clients towards some sort of plan or strategy set for improving the client's situation. I would not suggest that they give a complete picture of what goes on, but they give us examples of what people do that can be used to provide the basis for forming an initial hypothesis. This is why psychologists have to study other traditions too (such as psychoanalysis, interactionism, constructivism, socio-culturalism, and so on) as well as to cover different perspectives (e. g., social, cognitive, developmental., etc.).

    I'll see what I can do, in and amongst the stuff I'm trying to sort out after this house move of last month (some thigns are still in a chaotic state).

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 6:31 PM  

  • Thanks David

    By Blogger Ed, at 7:04 PM  

  • Matt,
    Behaviorists are out of their league when it comes to autism. They should shut up and leave it up to us experts to figure out how to solve the medical problems.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 8:31 PM  

  • Foresam, turn off your computer for a few weeks. You are a liar and you are not helping this discussion.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:44 PM  

  • "Behaviorists are out of their league when it comes to autism."

    Sure, John. Just get out of this discussion because it's way out of your league.

    By Blogger Matt Hogan, at 8:47 PM  

  • Oh nice one Anonymous!

    By Blogger Matt Hogan, at 8:48 PM  

  • Matt,
    You're all wasting your time discussing obsolete methods of dealing with autism. You people have to get with it and join the
    21st century.

    You can only use behavioral methods on people who know what they're doing. It's pointless on autistic kids who have no control over their actions. However, I think the zappers would work on Sanity Pending to improve his vocabulary.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 10:19 PM  

  • Foresam, you don't live in the 21st century. I don't think you're even human. You're a laughter creating machine!

    Switch off your computer before you explode.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:11 AM  

  • "They should shut up and leave it up to us experts to figure out how to solve the medical problems."

    Glad I wasn't aready eating breakfast when I read that! Weetabix and milk is not good for computer keyboards when you laugh the stuff all over them.

    BACK TO THE DISCUSSION FOLKS :)

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 3:54 AM  

  • "You are a liar and you are not helping this discussion."

    He knows, but doesn't care, except in as much as it is his purpose to derail...

    BACK TO BUSINESS, PEOPLE!!!!

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 4:10 AM  

  • Otherwise, for the difficult cases like Phil, padded timeout rooms are best so they don't hurt themselves.

    The problem isn't me, Best. It's you. You're the difficult case - if not impossible. And you are hurting a lot of people with your useless advice.

    Behaviorists are out of their league when it comes to autism.

    On the contrary, it's the GP's who are out of their league - along with chemists like Andy Cutler who have no business getting involved in Autism. Behaviourists are the ones who are trained to understand the Autistic psych - and the vast majority are psychologists. It's not something that can be trained with a click of the fingers (picking up the OP topic) and yet Best thinks it is irrelevant. He won't learn that - ever. Even after Sam inevitably turns on him.

    They should shut up and leave it up to us experts to figure out how to solve the medical problems.

    You are not an expert, Best. You have proven that already.

    You're all wasting your time discussing obsolete methods of dealing with autism.

    They work, idiot! Yours are the ones that aren't. As we understand more about the condition, the better the CORRECT methods become.

    You people have to get with it and join the 21st century.

    You're still in the 1950's, Best. You are the one who needs to get with it!

    You can only use behavioral methods on people who know what they're doing. It's pointless on autistic kids who have no control over their actions.

    Then you fucking get through the cloud and teach them!! That's what psychologists do. You haven't even bothered - not even with remedial therapy once you eliminated the sensory overload in Sam. By accident by the way! NO AUTISTIC MIND IS UNREACHABLE!!

    However, I think the zappers would work on Sanity Pending to improve his vocabulary.

    Zappers cause brain damage. That's why they are banned in Australia. The sooner they are banned in the US the better. Zapping is not behavioural therapy for the Autistic Spectrum. Never has been and never will be.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 5:24 AM  

  • David, as much as I know you mean well - ignoring Best doesn't work. If his BS is left unanswered, people will believe it. I for one will not let that happen. Yes, he's trying to derail the discussion - so I make it obvious that he is by correcting him. And if I can keep the conversation leaning towards the topic at hand.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 5:26 AM  

  • Actually, Phil, Best is so narcissistic that any lack of attention to him makes him an even more annoying twat than he usually is; that I can vouch for.

    Best place for him: padded cell.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 6:13 AM  

  • Timenut,
    You prove that your allegedly autistic mind is unreachable every time you open your mouth. No psychologist could help you until you're chelated and receive lots of HBOT.

    The lowest functioning autistics can not be taught to do anything. They have to be detoxified. If the brain damage is reversible, they can then learn to function normally, just like any child does. That's the only time teachers are useful, after biomed makes the kid educable.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 7:32 AM  

  • You're wrong, Best. As usual. You don't know anything. Go away, failure.

    David, I agree with that. Except the padded cell. That's too kind for animals like John Best Junior.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 2:16 PM  

  • David

    Did you ever get a chance to look at my proof?

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 4:46 PM  

  • Yes, Cube... little by little.

    When I've properly looked, I'll send a commentary on it, yeh? Got some college work to catch up on first... this house move's put me back a fair while...

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 6:19 PM  

  • "The lowest functioning autistics can not be taught to do anything."

    You give up too easily, John.

    By Blogger Matt Hogan, at 8:05 PM  

  • Matt,
    Look at Phil, he can't do anything. He's so fucked up, he isn't allowed to work.

    I didn't give up, my son's getting better but Phil is still is still a basket case.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 8:13 PM  

  • If Phil was like your son he wouldn't be able to type, Foresam.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:59 PM  

  • > He's so fucked up, he isn't allowed to work. <

    And what do you do for a crust again, hypocrite?

    By Anonymous Reality Check, at 12:11 AM  

  • Foresam said; They should shut up and leave it up to us experts to figure out how to solve the medical problems.

    Expert hey? What are your qualifications in this field? Degrees created by a print shop don't count

    By Anonymous Henry, at 1:56 AM  

  • Look at Phil, he can't do anything. He's so fucked up, he isn't allowed to work.

    I'm not allowed to work because people are scared of me, Best. And that will be changed. You are completely deranged. And you forget - I have an 18 year career as an Aussie Rules umpire behind me, a successful website, legal success and a 16 year marriage. Can't do anything hmmm? If anyone can't do anything it's you. Like admitting you are a liar if you are so much into the truth. You've done NOTHING in your life.

    I didn't give up, my son's getting better but Phil is still is still a basket case.

    Sam is still Autistic isn't he? He's only getting better because you lucked out with the reduction in sensory overload. No other reason. You did give up. Using a stroke of luck as proof you didn't give up only proves me right. You only call me a basket case because you can't debate me. Another case of giving up instead of learning.

    Henry, Best doesn't have any qualifications. The only thing he's an expert at is how to cover up his lies and a multitude of other things. He is not an expert in the Autistic Spectrum and never will be. To be an expert one has to have an open mind.

    Best has one of the most closed minds I've ever come across.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 5:39 AM  

  • Re; John F. Best BFA, MBA.

    John Frederic Best attended UFN for a total of four years. He was best of his class for both degrees.


    BFA- Bachelor of Fuck All
    MBA- Master of Bugger All
    UFN - University of Fucking Nowhere

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 6:46 AM  

  • Timenut,
    Lots of people are scared of crazed idiots. You are never going to change society so that sane people will feel comfortable being in the same room with a wackjob like you.

    You are going to have to change yourself and become less of a lunatic. Perhaps you should try a lobotomy.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 8:19 AM  

  • You just provided more proof of your closed mind, Best. You are the crazed idiot.

    Congratulations.

    Hey David, you missed the DSA!

    Degree in Shit All! (LMAO)

    By Blogger Timelord, at 5:34 PM  

  • David, I thought it was BBS and not BFA.

    Bachelor of Bull Shit

    By Blogger Matt Hogan, at 6:42 PM  

  • Phil... DSA? If I remember rightly, that's Doctor of Shit All, yes?

    I think he's still doing his 'thesis' for that... 'thesis the folks I likes and themsis the folks I dunt!' LoL

    Matt, I believe that the BBS is a lower baccalaureate degree that was earned by him prior to his admission to read (splutter) for the degree of BFA... so that would be subsumed into the BFA (after the same manner in which a PgCertSpEd is subsumed into a MEd degree).

    Fuck, I could go on like this for fucking ever!!!!

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 7:29 PM  

  • John, lunatics are people who persist in saying things they can't or won't prove. You can't or won't prove your theories. That makes you a lunatic. Therefore....

    You are never going to change society so that sane people will feel comfortable being in the same room with a wackjob like you.

    You are going to have to change yourself and become less of a lunatic.

    By Anonymous eddie, at 8:45 PM  

  • Eddie,
    Everything I say was proven a long time ago. The deranged nutjobs from Neuroinsanity simply refuse to accept the facts.

    Only an utter moron could argue against the fact that thimerosal caused the autism epidemic. And, only a moron would flit around the internet claiming they did not want to be cured of autism.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 11:27 AM  

  • Isn't it time to dig up poor Hillary from the Curebie Graveyard? She has work to do! ;-)

    By Blogger Clay, at 5:19 PM  

  • John said;
    Eddie,
    Everything I say was proven a long time ago. The deranged nutjobs from Neuroinsanity simply refuse to accept the facts.

    John,
    SHOW US THE FACTS! Where are they?

    By Anonymous eddie, at 6:34 PM  

  • Johnny you are a flaming dip! The more you post the more loony you look!

    By Blogger Scratcher, at 7:40 PM  

  • Eddie,
    Verstraeten, Bernard, Holmes, Geier, Deth, Haley and the parents of thousands of cured children. Those are the facts, stupid.

    Scratcher,
    Stick to calling yourself Timelord. We know the friends you claim to have are all figments of your imagination, phil.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 10:42 PM  

  • "Verstraeten, Bernard, Holmes, Geier, Deth, Haley and the parents of thousands of cured children. Those are the facts, stupid."

    No, they're not. Stupid!

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 11:40 PM  

  • Eddie,

    ForeSkin believes a lot of weird things, not least of which are the following:

    - Eli Lilly invented autism in 1931. John says autism did not exist before Jan 1st 1931

    - all autism is mercury poisoning from thiomersal in vaccines

    - there was no autism in China prior to 1999. John says autism did not exist in China until Jan 1st 1999

    - an adult male, fist fighting with his eight year old autistic son is a sign of good parenting

    - there has been an epidemic of autism

    - because Dan Olmsted didn’t find any autistic Amish, this proves thiomersal causes autism

    - t is acceptable to state that women he disagree’s with should be ‘horsewhipped’

    - phoning people he disagrees with at their homes to abuse with them is acceptable

    - the word ‘muslim’ is interchangable with the word ‘terrorist’

    (source: http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=360)

    Aonther of his weird beliefs is that I do not exist! LoL

    "Sane parents who don’t believe David exists? You’re saying it takes sanity to believe that someone you’re having a conversation with doesn’t exist?"

    (sources: as above)

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 8:17 AM  

  • Sanity Pending,
    Thanks for admitting you're a liar. Those leaps in logic from Kevin Leitch are not true and you know it.

    However, the first few things you stated are true.
    Nobody has ever been diagnosed with autism who was born before 1931. Since it is now 78 years later and autism is such a bizarre set of behaviors that it could never be missed by anyone, that equates to a 78 year long study that proves my point.

    Teaching children how to defend themselves is something I think all fathers should teach their children. Perhaps if your old man had taught you to act like man, you wouldn't have to go crying to moderators when you don't get your way.

    Just to decipher one of your lies here, I once commented that one certain woman who lies constantly about people who cure autism should be horsewhipped. That does not equate to horsewhipping any other woman.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 8:53 AM  

  • "Thanks for admitting you're a liar."

    I'm not one, and I didn't admit to being one. You are, though.

    Leave it at that. There's not much to talk about with you.

    And leave my dad out of things. He's dead. And my memories of him are all the better for him not belting shit out of me with his fists.

    You're a shit dad. Period.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 12:45 PM  

  • One last thing: "I once commented that one certain woman who lies constantly about people who cure autism should be horsewhipped."

    Given that nobody has ever been cured, that means that the woman in question certainly DOESN'T deserve to be horsewhipped at all.

    "That does not equate to horsewhipping any other woman."

    The fact that you think that ANY woman should be horsewhipped is evidence enough that you're basically a shit.

    You're worthless, John. Totally worthless.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 1:51 PM  

  • Sanity Pending,
    Your father didn't have to beat you to teach you to defend yourself. You can teach a child how to fight without hurting the kid. Do you think my kids hurt me when they punch me? The object is to teach them how to throw a punch, numbnuts.

    Yes moron, thousands of kids HAVE been cured and that particular woman should be horsewhipped, put in the stocks and mocked by every parent who has accomplished that feat.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 2:43 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 3:01 PM  

  • Hmmm...

    "... that particular woman should be horsewhipped, put in the stocks and mocked ..."

    You really are a nasty lump of shit, aren't you?

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 3:02 PM  

  • "Your father didn't have to beat you to teach you to defend yourself."

    He taught me how to throw people about. He taught me a few good places where hitting someone could kill them, and he told me a few other things besides (he was an Army medic ... what would now be called a Combat Medical Technician). He also told me not to ever do those things unless it was absolutely necessary. He did actually teach me a lot of self-defence things, and he packed me off to a karate club, too, where I learned more of the same things. He never had to fist-fight me, whereas you actually beat your kid on at least one occasion (you tried to justify it somewhere but that was little justification to do that at all). And he was able to tailor what he taught me to a kid who was dyspraxic (that's part of my diagnosis).

    You're still useless, ForeSkin. Never be any good, you...

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 3:04 PM  

  • John, Scratcher isn't Timelord. I am reliably told that Glucose wasn't online at all yesterday.

    By Blogger The Informer, at 3:47 PM  

  • Foresam said;
    Yes moron, thousands of kids HAVE been cured and that particular woman should be horsewhipped, put in the stocks and mocked by every parent who has accomplished that feat.

    John I'm going to ask this again.

    WHERE ARE THEY??? Just naming names doesn't tell anyone anything. Those aren't facts, STUPID! That's damn speculation!

    You can't just say they're facts and just expect us to believe it. SHOW US!!

    By Anonymous eddie, at 3:51 PM  

  • Eddie...

    Wasting your breath, mate. He's got fuck all to show for what he's claiming. And he's always gonna have fuck all to show for it.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 3:57 PM  

  • David, I still cannot believe Best is teaching his kid how to fight.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 4:51 PM  

  • Better believe it, Cube.

    My dad taught me much more than Best's teaching Sam. Sam's being set up for a not very nice life. And that is saddening.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 4:53 PM  

  • Eddie,
    Only a flaming asshole would ask such an idiotic question. Cured kids are everywhere, as you well know. You lying mother fuckers try to do deny them to promote your insane agenda. One day, we will find you bunch of scumbags and you will answer for your propaganda.

    Andrews,
    I never beat my kid. You're a real asshole for making that statement but, that's what I expect from you bunch of cocksuckers.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 6:42 PM  

  • "One day, we will find you bunch of scumbags and you will answer for your propaganda."

    What does THAT mean?

    By Blogger Ed, at 6:47 PM  

  • Seems that the Informer has a spy somewhere. He's right. I was offline yesterday because I was travelling. I'm in Sydney at present. If my maths and time difference judgment is right I think the train I was on was around Wagga Wagga. Look it up on a map, Best!! There's no way I could have gone online when Craig (Scratcher) was on!

    But I see Best is pushing 1931 again. Here are some REAL FACTS, Best!

    Nobody has ever been diagnosed with autism who was born before 1931. Since it is now 78 years later and autism is such a bizarre set of behaviors that it could never be missed by anyone, that equates to a 78 year long study that proves my point.

    They weren't missed, Best. They were diagnosed as mentally retarded. And that would go back not just to before 1931 (and even after before 1943 and you know why). It goes back to when asylums were first built. The 1800's. Some would have been DXed with youth dementia. Later some would have been DXed with schizophrenia. You don't know much about your medical history do you, Best?

    Teaching children how to defend themselves is something I think all fathers should teach their children.

    Not when they are profoundly Autistic like yours, Best!! Because you haven't been looking after Sam in terms of behavioural therapy with a qualified psychologist, you are creating a potential killing machine! Do you know who Sky Walker is? The teenager who killed his mother (allegedly - he hasn't been found guilty yet)? THAT is what you are potentially creating! Like David said, you are a shit Dad! You can't teach them to do something if they don't understand how to control it!

    I once commented that one certain woman who lies constantly about people who cure autism should be horsewhipped. That does not equate to horsewhipping any other woman.

    No one should be horsewhipped. That sort of punishment died out in the 1800's. You can brag about "cured children" all you want. They don't exist. Autism Yesteryear is a fraudulent video. NO ONE has been cured. Many have improved - but NOT ONE CHILD HAS BEEN CURED.

    I back Eddie's call for evidence otherwise. Verified, medically and psychologically PROVEN evidence. Nothing less. If you can't produce it, it doesn't exist. Period.

    Ed - Best means he'll forcibly "cure" us. Which is impossible without killing us.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 6:56 PM  

  • A Shite Dad: "Andrews,
    I never beat my kid. You're a real asshole for making that statement but, that's what I expect from you bunch of cocksuckers."

    Um... here we go...

    Kevin: "John's belief that as an adult male, fist fighting with his eight year old autistic son is a sign of good parenting.

    John has stated that teaching his autistic son (who I believe is eight but could be wrong) to fight, to punch, to block punches is a good idea. He has also admitted to hitting his child at least once as a punishment for some transgression his child committed."

    (source: http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=360#comment-10781"

    Hitting a child is beating a child, John. And it's wrong. Here in Finland, it's actually against the law, and quite rightly too.

    You're doing Sam no favours.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 8:06 PM  

  • Timenut.
    Neurodiversity killed Sky Walker's mother by touting propaganda to prevent autism from being cured. If brain dead mental cases like you would shut up, we might be able to cure them all, including you.

    What if my kid winds up in an asylum with weirdos like you for caretakers? He'll be able to beat the hell out of you if you bother him. That will be because I trained him well.

    I'd like you to meet some of those parents whose kids appeared in Autism Yesterday and say to their faces that they are liars. Are you willing to do that, Timetwerp?

    Andrews,
    Again with the out of context quotes from Leech. Nitwit!

    By Blogger Foresam, at 8:37 PM  

  • "Andrews,
    Again with the out of context quotes from Leech. Nitwit!"

    Um... it's stuff that relates to what you've actually said, ignorant old get.

    Deal with being a shit.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 9:11 PM  

  • Andrews,
    Wrong bonehead, do you like it when someone takes your words out of context?

    By Blogger Foresam, at 9:24 PM  

  • "What if my kid winds up in an asylum with weirdos like you for caretakers? He'll be able to beat the hell out of you if you bother him. That will be because I trained him well."

    Timelord made a good point, John. Sam will end up killing the caretaker. And you'll end up being blamed for teaching him something he couldn't handle.

    By Blogger Matt Hogan, at 9:32 PM  

  • "Andrews,
    Wrong bonehead, do you like it when someone takes your words out of context?"

    Not happy that someone's done your game on you, you old fuckbag?

    Make you feel niggled, does it?

    You do this to everybody else on an alarmingly regular basis, and yet you fucking HATE it when someone does it to you. Ever thought that others mightn't like it either? Of course not... JBJr's incapable of any sort of empathy at all. Even when you give the gnarled old bastard his own shit back.

    John, you're a lost cause and you always will be.

    Put yourself out of our fucking misery, will you?

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 9:48 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 9:49 PM  

  • Off to bed...

    Music stuff to do tomorrow.

    Unlike JBJr, I actually have something of a life.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 9:49 PM  

  • "Seems that the Informer has a spy somewhere."

    You're a bundle of laughs, Glucose. Wouldn't waste my time. A close friend in Melbourne simply saw you boarding the XPT. What have you said about paranoia of others? Have to say though my money was on you going to Canberra.

    John, it might be an idea to fully explain the correct context of the comments Andyroos is quoting from you.

    By Blogger The Informer, at 9:52 PM  

  • Andrews,
    Nice to see you admit you intentionally altered my words to change the meaning. Not too bright, are you?

    It's not my game. I didn't start this propaganda war.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 10:44 PM  

  • Eddie,
    Only a flaming asshole would ask such an idiotic question. Cured kids are everywhere, as you well know. You lying mother fuckers try to do deny them to promote your insane agenda.

    John,
    Only a fool would duck legitimate questions seeking legitimate information. They're everywhere, hmmm? Shouldn't be too hard to show us some then. Well? What are you waiting for? Or are YOU the lying mother fucker? And you are as long as you refuse to show us.

    I looked at the link to Left Brain Right Brain. Those comments weren't taken out of context. Gee you need rehab BAD, John!

    By Anonymous eddie, at 3:10 AM  

  • Crudmuncher: "Andrews,
    Nice to see you admit you intentionally altered my words to change the meaning. Not too bright, are you?"

    I made no such admission.

    What I said was: "Not happy that someone's done your game on you, you old fuckbag?"

    I did not say that I had done that; just that someone. I was merely quoting another person, as you yourself recognised! How can you be so fucking stupid with just one fucking head???

    Crudmuncher: "It's not my game."

    Actually, it is your game. You were the initiator.

    The Uninformed: "John, it might be an idea to fully explain the correct context of the comments Andyroos is quoting from you."

    I am aware of the context. He hit his kid. That is not a good thing, however you try to fucking defend it... it is not a defensible act. Grow up. Better still... grow a fucking IQ.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 4:33 AM  

  • "I looked at the link to Left Brain Right Brain. Those comments weren't taken out of context. Gee you need rehab BAD, John!"

    Thanks, Eddie.

    Best is exactly that sort of idiot.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 4:35 AM  

  • Neurodiversity killed Sky Walker's mother by touting propaganda to prevent autism from being cured. If brain dead mental cases like you would shut up, we might be able to cure them all, including you.

    The only thing we need to cure is intolerance. It's idiots like you who keep that up, so if you want to make that argument - I'll throw it back and say to you that YOUR side murdered Sky's mother. Not ours!

    What if my kid winds up in an asylum with weirdos like you for caretakers? He'll be able to beat the hell out of you if you bother him. That will be because I trained him well.

    Matt covered this well. Anyway, if you were a decent father you'd be making sure he DIDN'T end up there. What - are you admitting that he's definitely going by proxy?

    I'd like you to meet some of those parents whose kids appeared in Autism Yesterday and say to their faces that they are liars. Are you willing to do that, Timetwerp?

    I wouldn't call them liars. I call them misled - and I can prove it as well. I'll challenge them to provide the medical evidence that their child is no longer on the Spectrum, and I expect that the proper tests were not done. They were tested for classic Autism (which is what they were DXed with). Not for the whole Spectrum which is what should have happened.

    It's not my game. I didn't start this propaganda war.

    Maybe you didn't start it, but you sure as heck are supporting it! And you are one of the biggest propoganda mouth pieces on the Net. Congratulations - idiot!

    Again - I'll back up Eddie's challenge. Produce the cured kids! No more excuses. Produce them - or shut the fuck up!

    By Blogger Timelord, at 5:00 AM  

  • Phil: "Maybe you didn't start it, but you sure as heck are supporting it!"

    Actually, as I recall, he was on AutAdvo a few years ago trying to do all this propaganda shit. I'm sure many readers here will remember how he treated people on there. He was so abusive to me offlist that I had to block two email addresses of his!

    The man's a complete shit.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 5:16 AM  

  • Mental Cases,
    Ed and Phil, You both know that you can watch the trailer to Autism Yesterday and see 5 cured kids in that one short video. You both also know that you can go find the video of Bernard Rimland standing onstage with 100 cured kids. You two lying dirtbags can also go to the Autism Mercury group and learn the names of some of those people. I will not put those names out here.
    So, if you never bother to look, you will never see them. You do not need a diagnosis. All you have to do is look at them to see that they are not autistic, just as I can look at Amanda Baggs and clearly see that she is only acting.

    Timenut, If I don't secceed in curing my son, there will be no choice but to send him to an asylum. He's not like you, merely stupid, he's severely affected and can not care for himself or be left alone in any situation. It's not intolerance that causes bizarre behvior, dimwit.

    Andrews, Still crying about Autadvo from what, 4 or 5 years ago? Yup, you can dish out the bullshit but you can't take it when it gets thrown back at you, freakin sissy.

    If you don't include the whole point of discussion, a quote is out of context. I don't need to explain that to you though, do I? That's what you and your mental midget pals do for fun.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 9:20 AM  

  • "Andrews, Still crying about Autadvo from what, 4 or 5 years ago? Yup, you can dish out the bullshit but you can't take it when it gets thrown back at you, freakin sissy."

    Are you thick? I'm not crying about anything! I'm laughing my head off at you being unable to fucking defend yourself for being a total twat!

    Fact is, you said it and it's all there. You hit your child. Simple as that.

    Now go and hit yourself. Against a fucking wall.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 2:20 PM  

  • Sanity Pending,
    You weren't laughing at the time, numbnuts. You were crying to Frank Klein begging him to throw me out. You haven't learned anything since then either since you persist in name calling and nothing else of substance.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 2:36 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 5:16 PM  

  • "You were crying to Frank Klein begging him to throw me out."

    Much of the time I was laughing at you.

    But a lot of the time too, I was pissed off with the incessant stream of abuse you were slinging at everybody who disagreed with you (much as you still do now). And don't think that we don't all know that you're getting thrown off so many lists and other fora these days that there's very few left for you to pollute.

    People other than me are getting really pissed off with the very fact that you exist, Best; and that number grows day by day. My daughter understands science better than you do, and she's only 10. And you can bet your arse that your son understands more than you think he does, but isn't willing to say much in case he meets with your disapproval. And I mean 'say' as something one can do in other modes of communication than talking.

    In his position I think I'd be the same, if how you are on these blogs is how you are with people in your home who disagree with you. I feel very sad for Sam.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 5:20 PM  

  • David,
    If you expect to have any legitimate exchanges, you and the other nitwits really have to stop making inane statements like nobody has been cured.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 7:22 PM  

  • "If you expect to have any legitimate exchanges, you and the other nitwits really have to stop making inane statements like nobody has been cured."

    Claims without proof are not evidence and so - without evidence - there has been no cure.

    Grow up, John.

    You're five years older than I am and you don't even have the academic ability of someone in grade school!

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 9:09 PM  

  • David,
    How many times must you make the same dumb statement? A cut is healed when the scab falls off. You don't go to a doctor for an expert opinion about it. You just go on with your life and forget the damn autism.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 10:08 PM  

  • "How many times must you make the same dumb statement? A cut is healed when the scab falls off. You don't go to a doctor for an expert opinion about it. You just go on with your life and forget the damn autism."

    Like I say, John... my ten-year-old has a better understanding of the world than you do. That's incredibly sad for a man of your age.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 10:27 PM  

  • David,
    I was done with my academics a long time ago, at a normal age. You obviously have not progressed past those basics of learning to go on to the real world of learning.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 11:35 PM  

  • You've forgotten everything you learnt, John. My questions are only inane to you because you can't answer them and tell the truth at the same time!

    By Anonymous eddie, at 3:33 AM  

  • "I was done with my academics a long time ago, at a normal age. You obviously have not progressed past those basics of learning to go on to the real world of learning."

    Says a guy who has no clue how the world actually works. Firstly, I took a shitload of time out between school and university and worked for a living. Secondly, John hasn't even got a temperature, let alone a degree. Thirdly... a great many people take a longer route through their studies (since - contrary to John's idiotic belief - there is no age limit to when one is 'supposed' to have done X, Y or Z qualifications; as indeed he'd know if he HAD taken a degree himself).

    There were older people than me on my course: I wonder what our resident idiot would have to say to them... especially face-to-face. I've seen what John looks like, and even I could floor this waster.

    Eddie: "You've forgotten everything you learnt, John. My questions are only inane to you because you can't answer them and tell the truth at the same time!"

    You could understand that statement, and so do I, but you have to remember that John has some intellectual issues going on: most people, upon being presented with evidence of a new state of affairs on some matter, will change their schemata to accommodate that new information and evidence; John - for some reason - cannot do that. He fabricates theories as to why he is right and the new information is wrong (most of these theories being very strange indeed).

    John has had things explained to him by many much more intellectually able people, and even in very simple terms... he still fails to understand. John was 'done with academics' when he left grade school.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 4:23 AM  

  • AutAdvo, David? If that's where the mercury militia propaganda machine began I stand corrected on Best's contribution!

    Best;

    You both know that you can watch the trailer to Autism Yesterday and see 5 cured kids in that one short video.

    I've already gone on record and stated that all of those kids are Aspergers. Therefore they are still on the Spectrum and have not been cured.

    You both also know that you can go find the video of Bernard Rimland standing onstage with 100 cured kids.

    Link, please! Rimland wouldn't know an Aspie kid if ten fell over him.

    You two lying dirtbags can also go to the Autism Mercury group and learn the names of some of those people. I will not put those names out here.

    Oh when we demand names you run for it! And yet you criticise Cube Demon for keeping his name quiet! Hypocrite! Anyway, you know as well as I do that Schafer would kick me, David, Ed or anyone else on our side out in a heartbeat.

    So, if you never bother to look, you will never see them. You do not need a diagnosis.

    You've never looked at anything except what you want to believe, hypocrite version 2! Provide links!

    All you have to do is look at them to see that they are not autistic, just as I can look at Amanda Baggs and clearly see that she is only acting.

    I've looked at Amanda, and she is definitely on the Spectrum, and just because she's not a match for Sam in behaviour doesn't make her an actress, dickhead! She's genuine.

    Timenut, If I don't secceed in curing my son, there will be no choice but to send him to an asylum.

    So you give up. You don't love your son, Best. Admit it!

    He's not like you, merely stupid, he's severely affected and can not care for himself or be left alone in any situation.

    So you don't! You stay with him - 24/7 - until the day you die. IF you really love him that is.

    It's not intolerance that causes bizarre behvior, dimwit.

    ROTFLMAO!! You bet it does! You're a perfect example, bizarre and intolerant one! So's Cho. So's Martin Bryant. So's Adolf Hitler etc etc etc.

    To finish - I'll repeat it as David has done. There are no cured children. Best, if you repeat that there are you are lying because there is nothing to prove it except your own imaginary interpretation of the world.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 7:13 AM  

  • Nitwits,
    Denying cured kids won't make them revert to being autistic.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 9:08 AM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 3:41 PM  

  • "Denying cured kids won't make them revert to being autistic."

    Repeating shit a thousand times won't make it any more true!

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 3:42 PM  

  • So why don't you stop repeating your stupid denials?

    By Blogger Foresam, at 5:41 PM  

  • Denying cured kids won't make them revert to being autistic.

    Pffft! How could they revert when they were never NT to begin with?

    So why don't you stop repeating your stupid denials?

    Take your own advice, Best.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 5:49 PM  

  • "So why don't you stop repeating your stupid denials?"

    If you weren't so ignorant, you'd be funny.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews MEd (Distinction), at 7:50 PM  

  • You people must be paid well to act this dense.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 10:41 PM  

  • What's the reason for yours, John?

    By Anonymous eddie, at 11:13 PM  

  • What do you think, Eddie? He gets paid at the race track every time he's dense enough to gamble?

    That's the problem. Best doesn't get paid to be dense. It's in his nature to be so. In other words he has no excuse. I'd love to be paid to be "dense". I'd use Best as a role model and I'd make a packet!

    By Blogger Timelord, at 7:39 AM  

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