Whose Planet Is It Anyway?

Monday, September 04, 2006

Defining Curebie-ism

While I was reading blogs yesterday, I came across a post by a worried father who believed that autistic activists were opposed to any attempt to improve an autistic child's health. The father wrote that he was not trying to cure his daughter's autism, but he was afraid that when she grew older, she might hate him for giving her vitamins and a healthy diet.

I posted a comment that referred him to Kevin Leitch's recent post Biomed Is A Spectrum and explained that neurodiversity advocates do not object to reasonable diets and vitamins, but rather to harmful products and quack therapies.

Then I started to wonder if his misconception about autistic activists came from reading rants against "curebies," which usually have no definition of the word. I decided that it would be useful to clarify just what goes into the curebie mindset and why conscientious parents who care about their children's health and well-being are not curebies.

The defining characteristic of a curebie is a fanatical desperation to destroy a child's autistic traits in their entirety. Autism takes on a separate and distinct identity in the curebie mind; it is personified as a demonic foe that must be defeated at all costs. The child ceases to be seen as a sentient person and instead is treated as if he were a battleground for a cosmic struggle between good and evil. Jonathan Shestack, co-founder and president of Cure Autism Now, exemplified this mindset when he wrote that autism parents do not have a child but "a shell, a ghost of all the dreams and hopes you ever had."

Curebie-ism can be described as a cultlike ideology of exorcising the "demon" of neurological difference. It is not about any particular diet or therapy, although many curebies become obsessed with one snake-oil product or another. Their fanatical quest often leads them to endanger their child's health with bogus treatments. Some curebies idolize quacks like Mark Geier and David Geier, who are infamous for using chemical castration drugs on autistic children and committing blatant insurance fraud, as well as other conscienceless hucksters who peddle poison.

To pay for whatever they see as a potential cure, many curebies go deeply into debt and then blame their child for ruining their life. There are some curebies who fantasize about killing their autistic child, have no qualms about saying so while the child is listening, and seek to justify their murderous views by asserting that all parents of autistic children "share that hidden, dark thought," as two board members of Autism Speaks, Harry and Laura Slatkin, recently claimed. Curebies like this are so full of hate toward their own children that many of them support genetic research to exterminate the entire global autistic population through prenatal screening and eugenic abortion.

Some curebies troll the neurodiversity blogs and post bigoted comments that insult autistics. I'm not going to bother to provide an example of such comments, as I expect they'll show up soon enough and make it very plain what I'm talking about.

Here's a quick test for any parent who may still be unsure of what curebie-ism is. If you care whether your autistic child thinks you are a curebie—you're not one.

Labels:

61 Comments:

  • The first time I heard about curebies was in the context of ABA, not "biomed." There are som parents who are more than willing to endanger their children's mental health, intelligence and emotional well being with 40 hours a week of unrelenting drills, drills, drills and whose childrens' childhoods end up locked inside 90 or more volumes of data kept in binders in the childrens' homes. For these parents there is no time off for good behavior, they allow no "dead time." It's drills drills drills. Stimulus-Response. Stimulus-Response.
    They are just as bad as Erik Nanstiel dosing his daughter on ever incresasing doses of Lupron. (Yes, he's still at it.)

    By Anonymous Camille, at 2:16 PM  

  • That's a good, sorely needed, essay. A parent who cares about their child's nutrition, and properly treats medical problems, is not a curebie. A parent who home-tutors or potty-trains a child is not a curebie.

    I'm reminded of a parent of a child who functions quite well, but still, the parent is determined to "defeat" the last trace of autism in the child (using all sorts of quack cures in addition to teaching methods which may or may not be useful, as you can imagine). Why? Because the kid is a bit "odd" and he shouldn't be apparently. That's a curebie. And the child will let him know that I'm sure.

    That said, I think the following statment is a generalization:

    Curebies fantasize about killing their autistic child

    I don't think it's possible to conclude that only based on JBJr, Karen McCarron, Lauren Thierry, Tepper Singer or the parents in that article the other day.

    By Blogger Joseph, at 2:24 PM  

  • Camille: Yes, it's very sad that so many kids are not even being allowed to have a childhood.

    Joseph: You're right about the generalization. I've edited the post to fix that.

    By Blogger abfh, at 2:45 PM  

  • "I don't think it's possible to conclude that only based on JBJr, Karen McCarron, Lauren Thierry, Tepper Singer or the parents in that article the other day."

    I think that, too... much as the more vocal ones from the 'curebie' groups have this dramatistic way of looking at things, I'm not sure that Wade Rankin is the same as these others, and I'd say that most probably aren't... just those more vociferous ones.

    David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (pending, etc)
    Applied Educational Psychologist
    Kotka, Finland

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:52 PM  

  • I don't think that's the only definition of "curebie" that a lot of us have used... I know that I (as well as at least some others) don't limit it to parents that want to destroy their child's autism -- I also use it in reference to the ones that say things like:

    "I know I can't make my child stop having autism, I just want him/her to look normal so people will like him/her."

    "I'm not trying to cure anything! I'm merely teaching him how to behave in public, because people don't like seeing him [show pain at certain sensory things, stim, walk on his toes, show happiness in a autie way, etc.]"

    There are a lot out there that are completely and *seemingly* rationally aware that there's no way to make us stop being autistic, yet still do tremendous damage by teaching the kid that nobody will like them as they are. Sometimes they're not even aware that the kid is autistic, or aren't aware of things like biomed or ABA, and it becomes -- like in older generations -- a matter of thinking that forcing the kid to hide all signs of autism in public or at home, including getting upset at or trying to change things that hurt him/her but NTs don't notice, is teaching it to "behave".

    There are also other examples, but the main idea I'm trying to convey is that a focus on an actual "cure" isn't the only way to be a curebie... Trying to make the kid look "cured" in public or at home, refusing to let them have the cognitive things autistics need (like routines), or otherwise forcefully parenting as if the kid were a misbehaving NT also counts. It certainly does incredible psych damage regardless of whether the parent knows what the kid is or realizes that they're trying to make the kid be (or act just like) they are NT.

    By Blogger Moggy, at 4:43 PM  

  • Er, end of my earlier comment should have been:

    "...or realizes that what they're doing is harmful, not beneficial."

    Obviously they know they're making the kid look NT... I was referring to the ones that know their kid is autistic, but think that "encouraging" them to look otherwise is a great idea. Not far off from people that say it's fine to be gay as long as they don't have to see any signs of it...

    By Blogger Moggy, at 6:12 PM  

  • Many thanks for the definition. We sure do need it, with all these 'pro-fester' accusations flying around. This line is a real beaut.

    "If you care whether your autistic child thinks you are a curebie—you're not one."

    The folks ought to think about that one.

    By Blogger Alyric, at 6:24 PM  

  • Removing mercury from children's brains is far from quackery. Your surgeon, Orac, admits chelation is the proper treatment for mercury poisoning. There are no demons to be exorcised, as you put it. The only neurological difference is mercury. Intelligent parents remove that mercury while others on the lower end of the IQ spectrum celebrate having their brains fried by poison. Get real.

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 10:52 AM  

  • Fore Sam said: Removing mercury from children's brains is far from quackery.

    How far? Considering that DMSA and other chelation agents don't actively remove mercury from the brains of people with actual mercury poisoning, let's pretend for a moment that such a thing was possible. How would that correct or undo all of those years of cell death from toxic levels of mercury?

    Putting that aside, even if removing mercury from one's brain isn't considered quackery, claiming the ability to remove something that is only assumed to be there smells a lot like quackery.

    Promoting quackery, as you do, when you haven't even bothered to test for mercury makes you no better and possibly worse.

    The thimerosal hypothesis is a simple idea propagated by simple minds but by now you must be aware that the other rats are jumping ship and moving on to more complex ideas.

    How else does one explain incongruities like paternal age, maternal antibodies and other pre-existing indicators. Is thimerosal so toxic that it travels back in time effecting the parents, placenta and cord blood?

    By Blogger notmercury, at 1:42 PM  

  • Intelligent parents remove that mercury while others on the lower end of the IQ spectrum celebrate having their brains fried by poison.

    Any data to corroborate this claim, anecdotal or otherwise?

    By Blogger Joseph, at 3:40 PM  

  • Someone who cannot tell fact from fiction said: "Removing mercury from children's brains is far from quackery."

    Prove that it is there.

    Someone who cannot tell fact from fiction said: "Your surgeon, Orac, admits chelation is the proper treatment for mercury poisoning."

    Even if it is, your point is actually irrelevant here....

    Someone who cannot tell fact from fiction said: "The only neurological difference is mercury."

    Prove it.

    Someone who cannot tell fact from fiction said: "Intelligent parents remove that mercury while others on the lower end of the IQ spectrum celebrate having their brains fried by poison."

    Um... given that the link between mercury and autism is not proven, that statement was made somewhat unintelligently.

    Someone who cannot tell fact from fiction said: "Get real."

    Talking to yourself again, John?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:18 PM  

  • Joe;
    From Andy Cutler who advises 6,600 people about chelation. It will cure 50%, 75% will improve.
    I am watching my son improve all the time. After 7 years of zero development, that's enough proof for me.
    Anonymous Coward;
    You've heard all of the proof. Asking stupid questions anonymously does not deny the truth.
    NM;
    You haven't been paying attention. ALA removes mercury fromthe brain. Write that 500 times so I don't have to repeat it for again.

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 5:02 PM  

  • FS: You haven't been paying attention. ALA removes mercury fromthe brain.

    Um, no it doesn't. Just because you and an inorganic chemist say it does, doesn't make it true.

    Write that 500 times so I don't have to repeat it for again.

    I think repetition is one of your strongest skills. Unfortunately, repeating something over and over again doesn't make it true either.

    Show me some evidence that α-lipoic acid removes mercury from the brain and/or that brain levels of mercury are any more elevated in autistic brains.

    By Blogger notmercury, at 5:53 PM  

  • Quote-----
    Fore Sam said...

    Joe;
    From Andy Cutler who advises 6,600 people about chelation. It will cure 50%, 75% will improve.
    I am watching my son improve all the time. After 7 years of zero development, that's enough proof for me.
    Anonymous Coward;
    You've heard all of the proof. Asking stupid questions anonymously does not deny the truth.
    NM;
    You haven't been paying attention. ALA removes mercury fromthe brain. Write that 500 times so I don't have to repeat it for again.
    EndQuote---

    Dx: Stuck-Record Syndrome

    Rx: n/a (case intractible, no cure)


    David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (award pending, due to subsumption into MEd degree being awarded Dec 2006)
    Applied Educational Psychologist,
    Kotka, Finland

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:39 PM  

  • From Andy Cutler who advises 6,600 people about chelation. It will cure 50%, 75% will improve.

    *yawn*

    You know who Bernard Rimland is, John? He once claimed 75% improved with Secretin.

    BTW, I also see my son develop all the time. Every weekend, he's a better bike rider. Did you take your son for a bike ride yet or not?

    By Blogger Joseph, at 6:46 PM  

  • Joe;
    Rimland is not Cutler. Your analogy is two different animals. Secretin was thought to improve symptoms while chelation addresses the cause of the autism.
    Sanity Pending;
    Have your instructors taught you how to produce 76 year old autistics at the rate of 1 in 166? Thought so, the stuff I'm trying to teach you hasn't made it into textbooks yet. It's time to get your nose out of the books if you want to keep up with the state of the art when it comes to autism.
    NM;
    Parents who have cured their kids with ALA are proof that you are wrong and should start listening instead of running your anonymous mouth.

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 10:48 PM  

  • Is that really Andy Cutler's claimed recovery rate? 50%? That could be a blog post in itself. Of all the "success stories" at the GR site, what, 3% tell of loss of diagnosis? Amy Holmes said she had 500 patients, of whom 6 finished treatment and were sent home. That's a recovery rate of 1.2%.

    I don't know what the hell these guys are doing wrong, when the natural "recovery" rate in autism is 10-15%. (Granted, that's after a decade or more).

    By Blogger Joseph, at 12:12 AM  

  • John:

    "Sanity Pending;"

    I did tell you before to grow up... that must be what a beating with rosary beads does to you, eh? Kills the brain cells, eh?

    "Have your instructors taught you how to produce 76 year old autistics at the rate of 1 in 166? Thought so, the stuff I'm trying to teach you hasn't made it into textbooks yet. It's time to get your nose out of the books if you want to keep up with the state of the art when it comes to autism."

    It never will get in because it has no basis in fact. And my professor and my supervisor have far better credentials to teach me about autism issues than you will ever have: and much of the time, it's me that teaches them.

    David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (award pending, due to subsumption into MEd degree being awarded Dec 2006)
    Applied Educational Psychologist,
    Kotka, Finland

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:40 AM  

  • - "Removing mercury from children's brains is far from quackery"

    - "You haven't been paying attention. ALA removes mercury fromthe brain. Write that 500 times so I don't have to repeat it for again."

    Fore Sam;

    Maybe you can pass along these studies to Andy Cutter.

    "There was disconcerting evidence from this study, however, that ALA may also alter the tissue distribution of mercury and other heavy metals. Although levels of inorganic mercury and methylmercury in the kidney dropped significantly, levels of inorganic mercury also increased significantly in the brain, lung, heart, and liver tissue."

    Source

    "One must conclude that the palliative effect, if any, of GSH, vitamin C, or lipoic acid for treatment of mercury toxicity due to mercury vapor exposure does not involve mercury mobilization from the brain and kidney."

    Source

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:00 AM  

  • Sanity Pending;
    I couldn't help but notice you ignore my question about 76 year olds. You're teachers are operating with obsolete information. They are a disgrace to their profession. Psychologists make a living treating autistic kids with ancient methods that don't work. The only way to help autistics is to remove the mercury.

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 8:35 AM  

  • anonymous pub med junkie;
    Pub Med is not actively trying to help autistic children. Rats are not humans.

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 8:37 AM  

  • Pub Med is not actively trying to help autistic children.

    BRILLIANT!

    Rats are not humans

    So rodent research is meaningless to John unless it supports his point of view.

    By Blogger clone3g, at 10:04 AM  

  • Sanity Destroyed By Mercury said:

    "Sanity Pending;
    I couldn't help but notice you ignore my question about 76 year olds."

    I'll tell you about it when I'm 76! I couldn't help but notice that you ignore a call to grow up....

    "You're teachers are operating with obsolete information."

    No. You're operating on complete and utter bullshit, because you lack the intellect to do otherwise.

    "They are a disgrace to their profession."

    No. You are a disgrace to the vocation of fatherhood.

    "Psychologists make a living treating autistic kids with ancient methods that don't work."

    I used wonderful psychological methods with my daughter. Still autistic but a very happy autistic girl. And she learns. I think your son must be a very unhappy autistic boy.

    "The only way to help autistics is to remove the mercury."

    The only way to help autistics is increasingly looking like romoving people like you from the planet.

    Now I'm going back to something useful... my MEd thesis. Much more rewarding that even trying to reason with a man who doesn't know how to.

    Hell, I've known people with really deep learning difficulties who could reason better than you. I mean that. I worked in a special school, and found the kids there a lot more intellectually able than you have become.

    David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (award pending, due to subsumption into MEd degree being awarded Dec 2006)
    Applied Educational Psychologist,
    Kotka, Finland

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:26 AM  

  • Sanity Pending;
    There are no psychological methods that do anything to ameliorate autism. You can not treat mercury poisoning with pseudo-science. I earned my Master's a long time ago, son. All that book learning does for you is prepare you for the real learning outside of academia. You're too young and naive to realize this.
    So, you still opt for the dodge on the 76 year olds. And you accuse me of poor reasoning?
    My son is much happier thanks to chelation. He was severe and still can't talk but he can communicate now. He never would have unless I removed the mercury that made it impossible for him to pay attention to anything.
    David, you can stay in school from now until doomsday and never come close to my intellectual ability. You refuse to help your daughter with appropriate medical treatment while pretending to be an expert on the subject. First, you have to help yourself overcome your own disability. Then you might realize that allowing your child to go through life disabled when she could be cured is child abuse. I think you should put her up for adoption so a rational parent can help her.

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 12:21 PM  

  • Clone;
    Are you on Eli Lily's payroll?

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 12:23 PM  

  • LoL

    John, you're really a laugh a minute, man.

    Put it this way, you have no clue as to whether Sam's progress is down to his own tendency to develop (only dead people do not have a developmental tendency) because you have never used a method/treatment option that has allowed you to test for that. Without some way of seeing (like, maybe, an A-B-A-B design), you have no way of knowing what it was that brought about any progress.

    ALA has been shown to have bugger all effect on mercury removal (the evidence is on this page).

    As for my daughter... she's happy with how her dad is with her; she's happy about how her step-dad is with her; and she's happy with how her mum is with her. And none of us would consider putting her up for adoption. We'd also be prepared to do serious damage to anyone who tried to force that to happen.

    You claim to have a Master's degree, but your thinking is at a lower level than is required for that type of degree (at least, for one from a REAL university). I have students in my adult education class who - in their third language (after Finnish, then Swedish) - can argue and understand argument better than you appear to be able to in your first language. Just think a little about what you say... it holds no water. Never has, never will.

    You claim to have a degree in psychology: let's assume you have.

    Psychoanalysis, as practiced by many psychiatrists and psychologists in Finland (fuck knows why... I think even you'd agree that it's complete and utter bollocks!), has no means by which to be falsified: any feedback to the therapist that contradicts what the therapist says is seen as a 'denial' reaction which - as a defence mechanism - justifies to the therapist what s/he initially said, and confirms its truth. No falsifiability, no science.

    Look at what you do.

    Any rational argument against what you say is discounted (usually by some insult aimed at the person or their knwledge-base). You allow no room for any falsification of your belief (which is all that it is, since there is no objective evidence to substantiate what you say).

    All I see from you is this attempt to keep a grip on a set of beliefs that is at odds with the reality around you. Nothing else. Nothing rational. I have worked in a number of clinical and educational settings and I have never seen anyone as resistant to learning as you are: points to one thing, John.

    You have sacrificed your intellect for something that is little more than a collection of aims and ideas based on wishful thinking.

    Sorry John, but no matter what anyone does, you will never let anything shake your faith in this idea that Sam was mercury poisoned. Have you actually been shown the mercury? Did you have an independent lab battery done on him? You mention a medical practitioner telling you he was a vegetable: did you not think then that the medical practitioner might have been an unlearned arse? That would have been my first thought.

    Must be sad to have to believe so much in fairy tales that you lose your sense of reason.

    David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (award pending, due to subsumption into MEd degree being awarded Dec 2006)
    Applied Educational Psychologist,
    Kotka, Finland

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:28 PM  

  • Sanity Pending;
    Again, my son did not develop at all for 7 years. At 8 years old, he was just like a baby. Now, he's much better. Only a simpleton would claim chelation had nothing to do with allowing that development to begin.
    I don't care what nonsense is dreamed up by those who want to defend their crimes that is published in PubMed. It's just propaganda. Children recovering from mercury poisoning can not be denied.
    You won't be able to inflict damage on Child Protective Services when all of this is finally exposed and the drug company CEO's go to jail. When you refuse to help your daughter then, she will be removed to intelligent parents who will help her.
    That doctor who called my son a vegetable was accurate. Anyone who observed him would have reached the same conclusion. Fortunately for him, I kept pace with the knowledge that has been gained about autisn and he is now recovering and would never be confused with a vegetable again. I had a normal child for his first 9 months or so. That's how I knew this nightmare might be reversed so he could have back the life he was born with.
    You, on the other hand, listen to maggots like Kathleen Seidel who does everything she can to scare parents away from using good treatments to help their children. You are foolish enough to listen to this evil woman and others like her. You are one of her pawns, David. You fall right into her trap by being an autistic person who will not learn to help himself escape the nightmare of autism. You have naively joined these people who don't want you to ever enjoy normalcy because you would be wonderful testamony against the drug companies who caused your disability.
    You and your associates accues me of only being in this battle for a lawsuit when it is you, yourself who should be preparing a lawsuit for the damage that was done to you. Mrs Seidel, Joseph, Orac and others are your worst enemies, David. You just can't see through the fog of mercury in your brain to accept that fact.
    The thing you have to ask yourself is why would any mother of autistic children go to such great lengths to prevent autistic children from being cured. This makes no sense. People who stand to lose a trillion dollars that they don't have will lie to you, David. Has that ever dawned on you?

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 2:34 PM  

  • Tell you what, John...

    I'll reply to you when I don't have a pressing deadline for a thesis.

    I might even tell you a little about my life.

    What I won't do is convert to your way of thinking, though; that would mean I had lost myself, my respect of myself, and - quite frankly - the will to live.

    I'll leave you with this, though, John: "People who stand to lose a trillion dollars that they don't have will lie to you, David."

    Firstly, that is hardly rational... so why do it? I'm not being lied to, John; but Cutler saw you coming a mile off.

    And, to be honest, that's actually the bit where I do feel a real pity for you.

    I'm going to do one thing before I go. I'm going to apologise for how I characterised you previously. I had thought that you were a hateful person, really. I had thought that you would do anything to inflict insult on others how have a better time than you do. But maybe I was wrong there. If I was, I really do offer an apology; because what I see in you last post was a man desperate to be right, because his whole world could fall to pieces if he's not. But don't blame Kathleen Seidel for your misery; she didn't do that. You were indeed wronged, I'll tell you that.

    The man who convinced you that the path you're taking now is the one who wronged you. Really, I think it would be best to take it up with him. He is the one who lied. And did you and your son, and me and many other, and even Kathleen some serious wrongs. In the end, I think you'll find (hard though it is to believe at this point) that Kathleen's work is a good thing, because then you'll get to see who lied and why. And here's a clue: it wasn't Kathleen.

    And I am deadly serious at this point. I'm not sitting here angry, or agitated, or anything untoward; just sick of seeing someone desperate for an answer being fucked up the arse by a charlaton.


    David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (award pending, due to subsumption into MEd degree being awarded Dec 2006)
    Applied Educational Psychologist,
    Kotka, Finland

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:23 PM  

  • David;
    What does Andy Cutler gain by giving free advice? He saves us significant money on doctor bills. He advises us of the dangers of some of the protocols used by DAN doctors.
    What do drug companies gain if none of our kids are cured? It would mean that cure could not be used against them in court. Anyone ranting against methods that help cure autism must have their motives questioned.
    Kids are recovering listening to Cutler. No kids are recovering listening to drug company propaganda or Kathleen Seidel.
    You have a lot to learn, son.

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 5:05 PM  

  • John: Let's do this. Can you cite Andy Cutler's autism recovery rate and how he arrived at it? Seriously, it's clear you either made up a stat or someone lied to you.

    By Blogger Joseph, at 5:17 PM  

  • Fore Sam: He advises us of the dangers of some of the protocols used by DAN doctors.

    Oh, right. Has he advised against Lupron? I guess when it comes from your hero it's good advice.

    By Blogger notmercury, at 5:43 PM  

  • Joe;
    Don't call me a liar.
    NM;
    I don't know if he said anything about Lupron or not. It would certainly be more valuable than anything you have to say.

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 6:17 PM  

  • John: It's a simple question: Can you cite Andy Cutler's 50% recovery rate for autism using chelation and explain how he arrived at that number? Yes or no?

    By Blogger Joseph, at 7:12 PM  

  • Poor pitiful fore sam. He or she is obviously ill-informed, and all everyone is doing is picking on him or her by asking for facts you know he or she cannot produce. Someone ought to offer the poor guy or gal some real help. A science class? Some counseling?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:13 AM  

  • I found this: http://trots.blogspot.com/2005/06/checking-validity-of-medical-claims.html

    "Some folks mistake expertise in one field for competence in what at most is a marginally related field."

    "A big 'For instance'... there are people who for some reason feel they must test themselves (or children) for mercury. THEN they decide to chelate for mercury."

    "Andrew Cutler is a health care consultant in the Seattle area. He has a PhD in chemistry from Princeton, a BS in physics from the University of California, is a patent agent and a registered professional chemical engineer. His research has led to a number of publications in chemistry, chemical engineering and space related journals."

    "People are getting medical advice from a chemical engineer who THINKS he knows some biochemistry."

    Doing this is at best foolish and at worst can be lethal.

    Sorry John, but you really have been taken for a ride. Cutler saw you coming... from a mile off.

    He has no clinical training, and his profession (engineer) is not a clinical practice. He can't prove any of his claims, and his "work" has not been published (a book based on a 'case study' of one person is not scientific, by any stretch of the imagination).

    Sure, John, you can make your mind up for yourself on this; but I prefer properly tried and tested methods of working for anything. I certainly wouldn't use anything that Cutler suggests on my daughter and I would not recommend doing so for anyone else.

    David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (award pending, due to subsumption into MEd degree being awarded Dec 2006)
    Applied Educational Psychologist,
    Kotka, Finland

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:14 AM  

  • From http://tn4safervaccines.tripod.com/autismtreatable.htm

    " Andrew Hall Cutler, PhD Harvard biochemist, has come up with "counting rules" to determine mercury poisoning from hair test results. Autistic children don’t excrete mercury so hair samples from autistic children show NO mercury. Instead, Cutler found that derangement of levels of other toxic heavy metals in the body can indicate mercury toxicity. (Children with autism as a group also have low values of essential elements like calcium, potassium, zinc, and magnesium). Andy Cutler’s “counting rules” is important because most doctors see no mercury and tell parents their autistic kids aren’t mercury poisoned. Instead have the PhD expert read the test results at no cost: "

    However...

    From: http://www.noamalgam.com/#aboutauthor

    "Andrew Cutler is a health care consultant in the Seattle area. He has a PhD in chemistry from Princeton, a BS in physics from the University of California, is a patent agent and a registered professional chemical engineer. His research has led to a number of publications in chemistry, chemical engineering and space related journals.

    He also has engaged in extensive self study in biochemistry and medicine due to assorted health problems coalescing into a devastating 'mystery syndrome' his doctors were not able to cure - or even diagnose - for quite some time. After being able to work with his doctor to get better he decided to expand his professional activities to include writing about health topics."

    So, if I were to do self-study (i.e., informal and non-assessed) in, say, brain surgery... I'd be a competent practitioner, yeh?

    Bollocks!

    Andy Cutler is a serious danger to people's bank accounts. Maybe even their health.

    Back to my thesis after lunch....

    David N. Andrews BA-status, PgCertSpEd (award pending, due to subsumption into MEd degree being awarded Dec 2006)
    Applied Educational Psychologist,
    Kotka, Finland

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:30 AM  

  • David;
    Since you only trust tried and true methods, it follows that you don't trust thimerosal since it was never tested for safety. That's good, you're learning.
    If you want to teach yourself brain surgery, great, try it out on yourself first like Dr Cutler. Then you'll know if you learned it right.
    You're making the error of attacking credentials rather than paying attention to results. You'd probably tell me Tiger Woods has nothing useful to teach anyone about golf because he got his degree in something else. You keep harping on the money when, in fact, ALA costs about $1 or $2 per month.

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 7:36 AM  

  • Joseph;
    I could go and bother Dr Cutler just to answer your question. I'll do so right after you produce some 76 year old autistics at the rate of 1 in 166. Dr Cutler doesn't need to be bothered by the likes of you.

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 7:39 AM  

  • John: I take it you are unable to cite the number you have posted multiple times, i.e. that the cure rate for autism using Andy Cutler's chelation guidelines is 50%. Did you ever even read something by Andy Cutler that claimed this? Can you even tell us where you might have overheard this stat?

    By Blogger Joseph, at 10:36 AM  

  • FS: I don't know if he said anything about Lupron or not. It would certainly be more valuable than anything you have to say.

    Let me refresh your memory:


    "The theory that testosterone ties up the mercury and keeps it there is
    insane. Also the theory that testosterone creates the susceptibility
    in some direct sense.

    Also Lupron does NOT simply reduce testosterone. It does a lot more
    complicated stuff than that."


    Doesn't sound like he's a fan. No doubt you value his opinion over mine, Kathleen's, or anyone else who questions the safety and wisdom of experimenting on autistic children, but you must be able to recognize your double standards here.

    Oh, and no one called you a liar only that you've been lied too. Little comprehension problem there? Guess that wouldn't preclude you from a career in gambling.

    By Blogger notmercury, at 11:46 AM  

  • From the Autism-Mercury FAQ (at Autism-Mercury Yahoo group): In response to question "Has anyone actually 'cured' their autistic child by chelating them?"

    As of this writing [Aug 28, 2006] no one on this list has completely cured their child from mercury poisoning.

    That is a 0% cure rate - infinitely worse than the natural recovery rate.

    Care to explain John?

    By Blogger Joseph, at 11:56 AM  

  • NM;
    I'm not going to get in a debate with you over a quote from sometime from someone over whether Cutler or Geier is accurate on this. The only thing we can be certain of here is that any treatment that helps cure autistic children will be attacked by you and your defenders of the drug industry.
    Joseph;
    That answer is inaccurate. Who wrote it? Was there more to it that you opted to exclude?
    As for the stat, I heard it a long time ago, probably before you rodents infested the A-M list. Did you dig up any 76 year olds yet?

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 4:46 PM  

  • Joseph;
    But its early yet. Dr. Amy is getting some wonderful results with the children in her practice, and numerous parents have reported improvements in their autistic children with each chelation cycle.
    Does the above ring a bell, Joey? You may have looked it up in Aug of 2006 but it was obviously written a long time ago, my guess is 2001 or 02. You will go to any lengths to deceive people. And, with this, you have proven yourself to be nothing but a liar.

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 9:12 PM  

  • So John, you don't even remember where you overheard that stat, right? Would it be fair to say you pulled it out of your ass?

    As for Amy Holmes, I've seen her claims of improvement rates. They look very similar to improvement expected with placebo.

    Which lie did I tell John? You are going to have to specifically post the lie I told and demonstrate it's a lie.

    By Blogger Joseph, at 11:02 AM  

  • Joe;
    You posted this: "From the Autism-Mercury FAQ (at Autism-Mercury Yahoo group): In response to question "Has anyone actually 'cured' their autistic child by chelating them?"

    As of this writing [Aug 28, 2006] no one on this list has completely cured their child from mercury poisoning."
    You neglected to include the rest of the answer:"But its early yet. Dr. Amy is getting some wonderful results with the children in her practice, and numerous parents have reported improvements in their autistic children with each chelation cycle."
    Dr Holmes gave up her practice 4 or 5 years ago. This was put into the A-M FAQ's some time back. It was not put there on Aug 28, 2006.
    So, you took the quote you used out of context, lied about the date it was written and the information you neglected to include tells everyone that it was written some years ago because that is when Amy Holmes' study was published. Any casual reader of A-M is well aware that some kids have been completely cured. I don't think anyone has tried to count how many there are.
    I'm guessing I heard that stat directly about 3 years ago since that is when I joined the A-M list.
    Will you now try to weasel out of your lie by claiming an error in judgement to only provide part of the answer by which you derive a zero cure rate today when that was only true 5 or even 6 years ago when treating autism with chelation was just starting? Sorry, there's no way out of this, you are a liar.

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 1:05 PM  

  • The FAQ has a date John. I don't care if the FAQ maintainer hasn't updated the FAQ. Why don't you tell him or her to update it? Seems like a major oversight not to update that one question. What exactly is the number of children who have been cured 100% from that list over the last 6 years?

    By Blogger Joseph, at 1:34 PM  

  • Joseph;
    You, the world's leading expert on autism, should be well aware that Amy Holmes gave up her practice some years ago. I'll bet you celebrated the fact. Care to explain why you left out that part of the answer from the FAQ?

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 1:42 PM  

  • John,

    Answer the question being posed to you for once in your pathetic life.

    Where are the completely cured kids? Where are their stories in the medical literature?

    I'm not asking about "good results" or "improvements" - I'm talking about detailed clinical case studies where the improvement of a child to being completely off the spectrum could be attributed solely or even mostly to biomedical treatments.

    Otherwise stop your pathetic trolling and plan how you're going to spend your non-existent Big Pharma settlement.

    By Anonymous anonimouse, at 6:24 PM  

  • Anonimouse;
    Giving a free education to the needy is not trolling.
    Medical Publications are engaging in the coverup. They will not print studies of cured kids since it will show their doctors to be a bunch of jackasses for not knowing how much mercury they were shooting into our kids. They would also lose all Pharma advertising pretty quickly. If you want to understand this topic, you have look at all aspects of it, not just the "junk science" that is publicized by those who caused the epidemic.
    Get in touch if you want help with your self-confidence and, someday, maybe you can publish your comments with your own name. You'll feel much better about yourself when you can reach that milestone of maturity.
    John Best

    By Blogger Fore Sam, at 6:58 PM  

  • "You'll feel much better about yourself when you can reach that milestone of maturity."

    John,

    Why do you have to project so much?

    Why all the hate?

    People try to understand and to help, but all you do is abuse them.

    David (MEd, from December onwards... not even pending!)

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:07 PM  

  • As a somewhat "quetionably" NT Mom and Wife to Asperger's, I have found the curbie attitude depressing and disappointing.

    We do use some careful physician guided suppliments because my son's health in general is poor. He is chronically sick with something. And whether or not this is part of what caused him to present as an Autistic is not my concern at this point.

    Do I want a cleaner environment without toxins in my air, food and water. Heck yes! Do I find society's negligence and rape of nature inexcusable? Yes.

    But supposing that tomorrow there was a pill that guaranteed to "take the autism away" would I let my son take it? No way. Because everything that is my son has to do with what his life experiences have been to date. And I would never consider taking that away from him.

    While I do believe that much of what autistics experience is difficult, I also believe that they are no more in need of a cure than the likes of the people who have shaped our world in the past.

    Amy

    By Blogger Asperger's Mom, at 2:04 PM  

  • Parents who have cured their kids with ALA are proof that you are wrong and should start listening instead of running your anonymous mouth.

    Yikes, Chelation has also KILLED kids. I don't think using kids as guinea pigs is good science no matter how much "good" may come.

    By Blogger Asperger's Mom, at 2:12 PM  

  • I love my 12 yrs old son with all his Autism. We learned to live and have fun with Autism. My only concern is, my son Alp is not happy with his O/C behaviors, and when we go out of diet and supplements he starts showing them immediately. I do remember times that he hugged me and told me that he is not happy with his differences by crying. Girls laughing at him and teasing with him.He is a great kid and I am sure he will get other friends by the time who doesn't care his differences but cares mostly his inner word which is full of love and true emotions.The best part that his future friends can find in him is: He has no ability to lie! Can you immagine a 100% honest guy, which cooks, cleans and loves, besides he is tall and very handsome, full of laughters:)
    If we can deal with his O/C behaviors who cares if he is Autistic or not. I don't want him to beg me again crying "Mom I don't want to be different, I don't want to be Autistic, I hate having O/Cs. Please help me Mom.As his Mom,I can live with his wonderful personality but he is not happy with himself and expressing his thoughts with tears on his big eyes.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:02 PM  

  • My son's step mom was totally against the diet and supplements and chelation. Since all visible undeniable and wonderfull changes happened with my son even his dad decided to get rid of his wife.I asked my ex only one question: If our son would have a heart disease would she move her butt and start cooking healty, telling her daughters not to have any junk food in home or would she just let our son die? After quitting the GF/CF diet for 2 weeks Alp is hitting his legs to bleed. Now we are trying to get back in to track.
    Kids died during the chelation because of the lack of information. If you decided to go on this process first you need to get screen your kid's blood, enzyme, metabolism first. If your D.A.N practisioner has any concerns about any of those you need to work on these prior to start chelating. We haven't start chelating yet because my son's immune system is totally weak, and he is a "strep carier". With all these weakness you can't start chelating.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:04 AM  

  • thank you for this clarification. Cheers.

    By Blogger mcewen, at 3:28 PM  

  • The girl on the right with the
    "cure this" T shirt has a really nice ass. Where can I see more?

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:14 AM  

  • I have an open question to anyone who wishes to respond, and I apologize, but I've recently stumbled upon this world and am not really sure where to get these questions answered. I decidedly don't want to be a "curebie". I do, however, want to be able to communicate with my son.

    My question is this: Where is the line drawn between wanting my son to progress and become more functional, communicative, to be able to take care of his own basic needs, and wanting to "cure" him?

    I don't want a stepford child. I could give a rat's a** about what the people at the grocery store thing of my son's "odd" vocalizations and sudden jerky movements. He's an incredibly happy child, and if it weren't for the obvious issues involving his potential lifelong inability to communicate and my own undeniable immortality, I might just be content to let him just be that happy child. But as with any child, my job as his parent is not simply to let him be happy, but to give him the ability to survive and thrive without me someday.

    I honestly and sincerely want to know if I can pursue that goal without being a "curebie".

    By Blogger Heather, at 1:09 PM  

  • Heather, teaching your son to communicate and take care of his basic needs does not make you a curebie. Every parent does that, whether or not the child is autistic.

    I think you would enjoy this post by Kevin Leitch about the progress of his seven-year-old autistic daughter, who has just recently started talking. He writes:

    "...we would not want to cure her should a cure ever be developed. What we wish to do is help her to grow to a point where she can make such a choice herself."

    By Blogger abfh, at 3:14 PM  

  • Excuse me, but how much alpha lipoic acid do you give a 4 year old per day. It may not work, but with everything else, I'd like to try it since it seems a harmless antioxidant.

    btw, I'm not a cureby, I just want my child to be HAPPY. She isn't now. We are working on that.

    Thanks, Stacie

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 1:02 AM  

  • To all you bloggers bickering back and forth, you sound more like you're advocating for Me-ism rather than Autism. I think the majority of parents want to do what's best for their children. Why would you think that one treatment is exclusively better than all other treatments? There is evidence that chelation treatment has worked very well for some children. There is also evidence to the contrary for it's use in other children, including death. ABA is an excellent therapy and works well for a large population of Autistic children, depending upon where they are on the spectrum. For some, it doesn't work. I can't believe that all Autism is a result of mercury poinsening of the brain any more or less than I could believe that all Autism is genetic. There is evidence of the existence of both, among many other potential causes. Our responsibilities as parents, and self advocates, is to weigh the potentials and appropriateness of various therapies against any any potentially harmful effects they may have. Let's work together folks. Just reporting what you know has worked in some cases, gives others something to consider. It's not a race for first place in therapies.
    Cookie

    By Anonymous Cookie, at 5:50 PM  

  • It's really hilarious how you complain about "Curebies" being bigoted, whne you're using a derogatory, insulting term to describe them.

    Don't you realize that you're a pot calling a kettle black?

    By Anonymous Irony, at 3:17 AM  

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