Whose Planet Is It Anyway?

Friday, March 27, 2009

Affirmation and Impairment

Dora Raymaker recently wrote a thoughtful post on the Change.org autism blog contrasting the social model of disability with the medical model and discussing a proposed new model of disability, which is called the affirmation model. She explains that although the social model views disability as arising from barriers in society rather than from medical conditions, it may not go far enough toward affirming that disability need not be a tragedy or a misfortune.

The affirmation model speaks of people with impairments, rather than people with disabilities, and seeks to promote personal acceptance of impairment. Under the affirmation model, Dora writes, "we are fine with who we are as we are: our impairments are an important part of ourselves and our lives."

I certainly agree that all people should feel empowered to accept themselves as they are; however, it seems to me that the word "impairment" is not useful for advancing this goal because of its inherently negative connotations. The dictionary on my bookshelf lacks a separate listing for impairment, but it defines "impaired" as follows:


adj: being in a less than perfect or whole condition: as a: handicapped or functionally defective…


Granted, my dictionary is a few years out of date; it's a 2001 Webster's Collegiate that I haven't gotten around to replacing. However, I expect that this definition, or something quite similar, is still the first thought that comes into most people's minds when someone mentions impairment.

Under the commonly referenced definition put forth by the World Health Organization, impairment is a "loss or abnormality of psychological, physiological, or anatomical structure or function." While this language isn't as bad as Webster's, it still frames the concept in negative terms.

It should also be noted that neither of these definitions—nor any other definition of which I am aware—provides an objective way to determine whether or not particular characteristics are impairments. Instead, that determination is made by reference to whether a characteristic is seen as normal or abnormal, which is always a subjective concept and often changes as society's values shift.

Thus, using the word "impairment" to describe a personal trait implicitly acknowledges as legitimate—and further perpetuates—the practice of classifying certain kinds of human characteristics as abnormal on the basis of society's prevailing prejudices. It is not conducive to critical discussion of whether such a distinction should exist in the first place.

We are never going to reach the point where disability is seen as a normal part of life if we continue to define the underlying personal characteristics as the opposite of normal.

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129 Comments:

  • I think "impairment" was being used to mean " stuff people can't do or have a lot of trouble doing". There are "impairments" all humans have (e.g all humans have the "impairments" of not being able to fly, breathe underwater, or run at one thousand miles an hour). Theres are some impairments which nearly all humans have (e.g all other humans are "swimming-impaired" compared to Micheal Phelps). These common "impairments" are not stigmatized and a "cure" is rarely sought (and when it is, it not called a cure, it is called biotechnology.)

    Certain impairments, however, are considered "abnormal" (e.g being unable to hear/ walk/ see/ process spoken language at a speed of around four syllables per minute.) When most people hear the word "impairment" that is what they think of. They think of these particular "impairments" as bad and requiring "cure" (or pity if a "cure" proves impossible). This is despite the fact that many impairments are also attached to gifts (e.g. autistic processing problems are linked to a greater awareness of certain stimuli, which can e very beneficial in many circumstances. Blind people often have better hearing than sighted people.) Yet non-disabled people dn't recognise that their lack of these rare abilities is neither more nor less of an impairment than disabled people's lack of certain common abilities.

    An impairment becomes a disability when being treated as not being able to do/ having extreme difficulty with a certain task means that you are considered a lesser being to the majority of other humans.


    I think maybe we shuld use the less loaded word "limits". Everyone has limits on what they are capable of, and no two people's limits are identical. When all peoplethat no-one's physical or cognitive limits make them better or worse than anyone else, and that people shouldn't put up barriers against people with particular limits,then tere won't be such a thing as disability. Everyone wil be able to use the abilities they have, work around the abilities they don't, and never feel stigmatised because of something they can' do. This will have benefits for everyone, not just disabled folks. People will realise that there isn't just one kind of acceptable person, that all people are acceptable and necessary and therefore will not constantly beat themselves up about not being good at everything.

    Sorry if I stated the obvious there.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:41 AM  

  • We discussed on my blog a long time ago how the word invalid was used to describe not valid and yet the concept is so ingrained in our culture that we change the emphasis on the syllable and act like it's a new word that no longer means that.

    I agree that we need to look at the words and our beliefs about less than average (considered average by modern society)skills to stop limiting ourselves and marginalizing people.

    Also though, we tend to take concepts that are too new and not yet comprehended by the typical majority and place them in another already established, convenient, but different category which again limits the potential of what was otherwise new and potentially empowering.

    When an impairment is seen for example in a spiritual or new age perspective, it may then be treated with a different set of less orthodox magical treatments which are just more expensive and not supported by insurance and public programs.

    Without these provisions private citizens and communities have not shown their willingness to help with what they assume their taxes allow them to avoid.

    Too often we reach so high with our aspirations of how things should be that (although we are right and the change is needed) we forget what the outcome will be of what we try once it has been run through our typical "normalizing" mill and how the majority may be worse off from moving too swiftly and impractically.

    By Blogger Ed, at 9:56 AM  

  • Somebody once presented a paper about that :)

    http://www.disabilitystudies.net/uploads/2006/larry%20arnold.doc

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 1:58 PM  

  • There is absolutely no way that impairment is something to be fine with, or that it isn't negative or misfortune. Impairment isn't based on normality.

    It's pathetic to try to defend the supposed greatness of impairment, by attacking the dislike of impairment as if impairment was absurdly based on deviation from some normalcy, instead of only on lack of ability/skill.

    If one genuinely is trying to fight some alleged standard of normalcy, why would they want disability to be seen as a "normal" part of life? I wonder why such a person would even think the World Health Organization's definition of impairment, which is composed of the concept of abnormality, is better than Webster's.

    I try to consider which side of the issue actually wants the concept of normalcy to be talked and thought about. But I can't expect a lot else from desperate and diversion-based attempts to bolster phony self-esteem.

    By Blogger lurker, at 2:54 PM  

  • Anon: Your comment makes good sense to me, and no, I didn't think you were stating the obvious.

    Ed: Words and expectations do indeed give rise to convenient categories that may not be ideal for the purposes intended.

    Larry: Thanks for the link! As always, you phrase things much more colorfully than I do, with my limitation of thinking in words. It's interesting to learn that "impair" comes from the same root as "pejorative." I hadn't been aware of that, but it does not surprise me.

    Lurker: If you continue to read blogs that discuss disability rights issues, you'll understand more about the concepts eventually.

    By Blogger abfh, at 3:17 PM  

  • Agree a 100% here, I hate the word impaired so much.
    This word is used so often by autistics, and it displays a level of self-loathing that really alienates me.
    (Why hello Lurker!)

    By Blogger Miss Gonzo, at 5:05 PM  

  • Lurker will not understand, because lurker does not want to understand, lurker does not have an opinion, all lurker has is bias and prejudice.

    In lurkers world, that is all that matters.

    Lurker knows nothing.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 5:31 PM  

  • laurentius, your ridiculous arguments aren't respectable, as you all just try desperately to avoid the acknowledgment of disappointment and misfortune that naturally comes with impairment.

    I've listened to these nonsense arguments long enough. I rejected them and there is nothing else to understand about it that would or should change my mind. You won't grasp the idea that someone may disagree with you based on the substance of what you contend. I won't "understand" these things which means, I will not be indoctrinated into an obedient adherent to your dogma. If there is something I or other opponents should understand, I think it's up to you to describe it in detail. But you won't as you can't truly defend such sick and unfair ideas.

    You should learn what prejudice is, instead of throwing around such words for effect and to make you seem holier than thou. I hope you don't convince too many people to put their heads in the sand with your rhetoric.

    By Blogger lurker, at 5:50 PM  

  • "I think it's up to you to describe it in detail"

    Sorry lurker, if you want to learn something it's up to you to learn it.

    There's more than enough 'detail' for you to get through out there. Even those of us we have been looking into this for years routinely come across new sources.

    You will never, ever get that you only view impairments as negative becuase if a trait is seen as negative, then it is eligible to be labelled an impairment.

    You have proven that this simple distinction is utterly beyond you.

    You're not willing to learn, not willing to listen and are proud of it. To make things worse, you blame us for your failed attempts at trying to understand.

    I am utterly flummoxed as to why you haven't been banned from most of the blogs you have been on. I've seen much less bone-headed and arrogantly self-referencing people than you get banned for a lot less pointless disruption than you have been responsible for.

    You're pretty much seen as a very bad joke around here. There may be something in that.

    I for one will not be responding to you again. I've had enough of your silly pedantic crap.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 6:41 PM  

  • Anon, I'm not the one who is trying to push the argument to be learned, and there aren't many sources from which to learn it. There isn't anything to learn from the psychobabble. I've read lots of the sources on this and they aren't really different besides from using different jargon.

    "You will never, ever get that you only view impairments as negative becuase if a trait is seen as negative, then it is eligible to be labelled an impairment." That doesn't make any sense at all. Traits thought of as negative aren't all called impairments. Nobody likes to be impaired and kept from doing things. People like to be competent. So there's no reason for impairments not to be viewed as negative.

    I have listened. I considered it, and rejected it, on its awful merits. You refuse to acknowledge that anything could possibly be perverse or weak about your arguments, so you accuse those who disagree with it with not listening and not wanting to learn. You're the ones who won't listen to counterarguments.

    Sure I may be a joke around here, but these ideas and those like you are jokes in settings with a whole lot of people, who would be stunned to hear such ideas. You're the one who is pedantic. You don't realize that you're projecting in your criticism of me.

    By Blogger lurker, at 7:14 PM  

  • Lurker always reminds me of a thing Leo Tolstoi said:
    "The most difficult subjects can be explained to the most slow-witted man if he has not formed any idea of them already; but the simplest thing cannot be made clear to the most intelligent man if he is firmly persuaded that he knows already, without a shadow of doubt, what is laid before him."

    By Blogger Miss Gonzo, at 7:56 PM  

  • lurker,

    Quit insisting the world is flat and flirting with the supposed edges.

    Quit walking behind your horse and complaining that it's gassy.

    You may believe that something isn't right but unless you invest in learning about it you'll never know. Once you've made the investment in proving that it's wrong, you may find you are. It's a necessary gamble.

    By Blogger Ed, at 8:00 PM  

  • what Tolstoy said. :) I was busy writing instead of reading.

    By Blogger Ed, at 8:03 PM  

  • Tolstoi with an i

    By Blogger Ed, at 8:07 PM  

  • Gonzo, the things you argue for aren't really a dilemma. There aren't really any people who haven't formed any prior thoughts about the concepts that are being discussed. You don't have any real argument to refute basic reality as it is known to sane people. You don't have anything to say to back it up so you say the senseless things you do when confronted, then go back to ranting about your own ideas.

    Ed, your ideas on this are not fact and aren't irrefutable. I don't have to invest a lot of learning to know that what I say is true and is common sense. You can't even defend your ideas while you use ad hominem attacks when confronted by disagreement.

    If you're so convinced you're right and know something great, why can't you point out why your opinion is better than mine? I fear the prospect of those like you putting your opinions into effect.

    By Blogger lurker, at 8:29 PM  

  • "Ed, your ideas on this are not fact and aren't irrefutable"

    I've always known this website to be used for discussion. I expect my ideas to be refuted.

    "You can't even defend your ideas while you use ad hominem attacks when confronted by disagreement."

    I don't know what an ad hominem is and I don't think I do that. If I did I'm sorry.

    "If you're so convinced you're right and know something great, why can't you point out why your opinion is better than mine? "

    I always like to keep separate what I can't do and don't do. What I can't do so far is see what your opinion is. I accept responsibility for that. I'll reserve future unwarranted advise.

    "I fear the prospect of those like you putting your opinions into effect."

    I'm not formally educated enough to have the luxury to not to be what I think. It's the requirement of a commoner.

    By Blogger Ed, at 8:59 PM  

  • Ed, I don't know what you're talking about. Ad hominem is when someone makes personal attacks against someone making an argument to discredit the argument, instead of making claims against the substance of the argument or trying to disprove it.

    By Blogger lurker, at 9:11 PM  

  • OK I'm guilty of that. Sorry

    By Blogger Ed, at 9:14 PM  

  • ABFH

    I think you are a wise and an intelligent woman.

    Here are the reasons.

    1. You do not presume anything
    2. You are able to balance reason and passion. http://www.123helpme.com/view.asp?id=15692

    I am still learning to do that myself.

    ABFH, I have come to a conclusion and I have already told Timelord what I want to do.

    In our country, the USA, our country has certain values that derive so called normality. ABFH, if we are to become accepted in society especially the USA we need to challenge certain values the USA has.

    Eventually I am going to write a paper of my own showing through set theory and the Socratic Method that these certain values are inconsistent and contradictory with each other. Even the members of these value sets are inconsistent and contradictory to each other when they're taken to extreme levels.

    I have already done one value already.

    In addition, I will use one value to show how one value is a detriment instead of a boon.

    Lurker, you helped to solidfy one lesson for me and that was to "Know that I know nothing" which means I cannot know anything with 100% absolute certainty. In addition, you did teach me a lesson of what is happening in NT society and that is NTs roll up two different words and phrases into one phrase. Even though, we are on two different sides of the argument, I am thankful for the lesson you taught me. Indirectly, you have helped to pave this conclusion I have come to for me.

    You did this by telling me what I truly need to challenge. I intend to challenge certain values and I appreciate the knowledge you have given me. Lurker, you have helped me to help progress the ND movement itself.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 11:16 PM  

  • Lurker also reminds me of a thing Douglas Adams said:
    "All opinions are not equal. Some are a very great deal more robust, sophisticated and well supported in logic and argument than others."

    By Blogger Miss Gonzo, at 1:30 AM  

  • "laurentius, your ridiculous arguments aren't respectable, as you all just try desperately to avoid the acknowledgment of disappointment and misfortune that naturally comes with impairment."

    Have you tried telling that to the peer reviewers at sundry Universities who continue to accept my papers for presentation? I am probably more widely known in the general disability world than the autism one.

    My career of public service did not begin with the National Autistic Society. I have been actively engaged with disabled and devalued people since the early 1980's amongst other things, producing a directory of services, carrying out research, and hands on advocacy, never mind the heavy end of personal care.

    I did not suddenly come up with my opinions, I was exposed to a lot of debate within the disability movement, and like many others slowly shifted from the prevailing societal models to the one that has proved the most effective in delivering services and rights to disabled people.

    The whole history of that movement in the UK is archived at Leeds University, it is a history made by disabled people, and you really need to get your head round that.

    The debate continues, and as it does there arise various schools of opinion within that movement,just as there are within "neurodiversity" which all goes to show that it is a "healthy" movement. Scholarly and reasonable criticism is welcome, but bigotry ain't.

    None of this is just because I think so, the evidence is overwhelming.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 5:47 AM  

  • *Just realized "Tolstoi" is spelt with a "Y" in English.

    By Blogger Miss Gonzo, at 7:47 AM  

  • I am not sure how you would render Lavrenti in Cyrillic ... Лаврентий perhaps, so the omnipresent Google tells me.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 8:02 AM  

  • Hey Gonzo, I wonder why you have nothing to say to me. You aren't half as brave as you make yourself out to be.

    laurentius, I don't care about your papers, your prominence, or the peer reviewers. The severely mentally disabled who you supposedly advocate for, do not have the chance or capability to get influence through making papers and wooing intellectuals.

    I don't care what shaped your opinions. I think they are awful. I don't care to maintain your career through preventing mental disability from being cured. I don't care about what you say is reasonable. I won't accept your designation of what criticism is tolerable. I heard about where the social model of disability came from and it shouldn't have been extended to anything else as it has. Your self-importance isn't evidence.

    By Blogger lurker, at 11:04 AM  

  • Lurker said:
    "Hey Gonzo, I wonder why you have nothing to say to me. You aren't half as brave as you make yourself out to be."

    Typical troll behavior. Attempting to bait, to dare Miss Gonzo into saying something to him, so's he can argue with her as well.

    Notice that he always addresses people by name. He wants to be addressed by name also. Wants to "make it personal". Indicates just how lonely he is. We should all feel sorry for him, right?

    WRONG ! because the reason why he's so lonely is because he's just as rude, belligerent, arrogant and foolishly argumentative in his real life as he is on these forums.

    There's a fine example of his ideas of "fairness" of the allotment of mental abilities at "Cat in a Dog's World" here:

    http://autisticcats.blogspot.com/2009/03/aoa-footnotes-meltdowns-and-more.html

    Notice how he finally shuts up after Joseph refuses to respond to him anymore. Joseph just quit taking his bait.

    Please, if you're not going to ban him, just quit taking his bait, and he'll go away on his own. Just like John Best, you're not going to convince Billy (lurker) Cresp of anything. All he wants to do is to argue.

    By Blogger Clay, at 12:55 PM  

  • Clay, she has poked annoying remarks at me without saying anything to me or asking me anything. So who was daring who? What the hell am I supposed to address people by? Who is the real troll? Who is the one following someone around on different blogs to ambush that person when he makes a comment?

    I'm lonely because I'm a damn loser. I don't care for your passing of judgment on me. I don't mind being rude and belligerent to you as you guys deserve it. How do you know what I'm like in my real life? Since when does being arrogant and belligerent necessarily make people lonely?

    Yeah, I shut up after Joseph stopped responding, as I saw that the discussion was over. What's the big deal? What are you doing around here? What stake do you even have in these issues? Since I don't have a decent reason to argue here, I'd like to know what reason you have to argue.

    I'm not arguing here for pleasure. I'm very compelled to stop and impede you all, and point out your nonsense. All I ever really wanted was a decent existence to enjoy a little. Is that too much to ask!!?!

    By Blogger lurker, at 1:23 PM  

  • Bait be damned! Lurker you're a jerk! ad homonym ad homonym ad homonym.

    You admit that you're on these blogs to cause trouble and complain that people target you!!?? This is a game you can't win dude. Give it up already!

    By Blogger Ed, at 1:32 PM  

  • Cube Demon: Thank you. I'm not sure it is possible to avoid presuming, but I do make an effort.

    Clay: I don't ban Billy because, among other things, he is a useful cautionary example. I think he really does feel compelled to tell everyone what a loser he feels he is. Quite sad.

    By Blogger abfh, at 1:34 PM  

  • "I think he really does feel compelled to tell everyone what a loser he feels he is."

    I wish I knew what he is trying to gain from that because I really don't know. He says things only to people that are willing to argue with him and then berates them when they do. It makes no sense.

    By Blogger Ed, at 1:43 PM  

  • Ed, why don't you quit thinking about me? You hardly can form lucid statements, barely know what you're talking about, and now you're pissed at me because Clay basically said you should be. I don't mind that I'm a troublemaker trying to curtail your dominance and get the real issues dealt with. This isn't a game. I don't like the way that Clay baits me.

    By Blogger lurker, at 1:48 PM  

  • I know you lurk around my blog, too, lurker, so you surely must have read my elaborations on different abilities.
    The social model of disability is a very simple concept to grasp, and your refusal to even aknowledge its existence, just shows that you're only here to rub people up the wrong way.

    By Blogger Miss Gonzo, at 2:11 PM  

  • Gonzo, I didn't say it didn't exist. I think it's nonsense so I rejected it. I saw that post of yours and thought it was ironic.

    By Blogger lurker, at 2:25 PM  

  • Billy said:

    "I'm lonely because I'm a damn loser."

    You sure are, one of the sorriest damned losers I've ever run across, even worse than Mitchell, because he has at least attempted to support himself. And the entire reason for that is your Loser Attitude!

    "I don't care for your passing of judgment on me. I don't mind being rude and belligerent to you as you guys deserve it. How do you know what I'm like in my real life? Since when does being arrogant and belligerent necessarily make people lonely?"

    Since other people exist, and they don't like it when jerkwads like you act rude, belligerent, arrogant, and stupidly argumentative as you do. It was You who passed judgment on us first, with your first postings on LB/RB, and I've followed your "career" since then.

    "What are you doing around here?"

    Clueless boy. I've been "around here" for years. Check the archives.

    "What stake do you even have in these issues? Since I don't have a decent reason to argue here, I'd like to know what reason you have to argue."

    I'm autistic, you know that. We've communicated in private email, remember? I didn't say that you "don't have a decent reason to argue here", I will say that your arguments don't make any sense, are not based in any kind of reality, and are a waste of our time, though.

    "I'm not arguing here for pleasure. I'm very compelled to stop and impede you all, and point out your nonsense. All I ever really wanted was a decent existence to enjoy a little. Is that too much to ask!!?!"

    Pssst! Billy. It's Springtime! Go enjoy it! Walk in a meadow, pick some wildflowers, find a creek, and sit down on its bank and listen to it. Watch for wildlife, such as birds, or frogs, even ants, and see what they do. Spend an enjoyable afternoon doing such things, and then think about what you saw those animals doing.

    Most likely, they were all gathering food, building nests, doing something to further their survival. Think about that, contemplate it, meditate on it, and figure out the Mystery of Life!

    THEN GO GET YOURSELF A FUCKING JOB ! Listen, you sniveling brat, your mother didn't do you any favors giving in to your histrionic tantrums. She should throw your lazy ass out of her nest now, while there's still some hope for you. You're 25 for Chrissake! Learn to be a MAN, instead of some useless whiner!

    You don't have any physical disability, you only have an inflated ego and estimate of what you're worth, and refuse to do any "menial labor", or take any orders from others, because you think you're somehow better than them.
    You're not - really, really NOT!
    There Are jobs for those willing to work. You're just too lazy.

    By Blogger Clay, at 4:02 PM  

  • Billy said:
    "Who is the one following someone around on different blogs to ambush that person when he makes a comment?"

    I don't follow you around, you're the "Johnnie-Come-Lately" on MY usual haunts. If you want to go somewhere I'm not, and where you'll be safe from all us ND types, go here:

    http://autisminnb.blogspot.com/

    Besides your old friend Harold, you can check out his Blog Roll, and visit all those blogs too. But Billy, I suggest you don't start off by insulting them and accusing them of things they haven't said, or lambasting them for positions they haven't taken, as you've done with us. If you do, you'll soon become the "persona non grata" arse there too.

    In other words, try being friendly, for once, instead of the rude, arrogant, belligerent, argumentative, snivelling, whiney PISSPOT that you've been with us.

    By Blogger Clay, at 4:44 PM  

  • "I think it's nonsense so I rejected it"

    That's great, but don't think that just becuase it doesn't make sense to YOU that it therefore doesn't make sense.

    Despite several attempts, you have yet to demonstrate how traits can be considered impairments, or how impairments can be considered disabilities without there being some system (formal or informal) that allows us to do so.

    If you wan't to be taken seriously, you need to start coming up with reasons (that exist outside of your own internal value system) as to why we should treat your concerns as valid.

    Bad mouthing ND (usuing tired old canards that you can't even be bothered to check to see if they are true or not) doesn't cut it. Nor does demanding every last detail (including those that are your responsibility to find out) and then screaming when it's not handed to you on a plate.

    We're not here to provide your education for you. You have been given sources, references, people you can contact locally and even had things explained to you again and again.

    Time for you to shift your arse and start doing some proper reading. What you've done so far is clearly sub-standard.

    ----------------------------------

    Sorry, but this just tires me out.

    I'm not willing to go over it again, but there's just something about lurker that is like a car crash. You just can't help but stop to look.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:19 PM  

  • Clay, what does my "loser attitude" have to do with anything? A lot of prominent people with status get away with being rude and belligerent, including some of the people on these blogs. So being rude doesn't necessarily lead to loneliness.

    I pass judgment on you all because of the horrific things you all say and want to enforce. You judge me without even stating a reason sometimes. You don't have a stake in the issue aside from being autistic, and a non-impaired one, which is what I found out in the e-mails. The things you told me make me think you hang around here with your attitudes for other reasons.

    I'd love to enjoy spring. Why wouldn't I want to? Well, today I've been doing some spring cleaning actually. I'd love to go to the park and do those things you mentioned, but I don't know how to transport myself to one and don't have the money to do so, due to my disability.

    I love watching other species do things. I like that unlike humans, members of other species don't oppress other members of their own species and seem to exist in harmony.

    I can't get a job. I've screwed up miserably at all the jobs I've held. Nobody will hire me for even the most menial of jobs. I have insufficient experience, skills, and references, to get hired. I've spent lots of time looking for jobs, sending resumes, going to interviews, only to be disappointed or jerked around by potential employers. It is harder now for me to get one as I've been out of work for over 2 years and can't explain away that gap in work history, and especially hard in recent months due to this recession. There aren't jobs for all that are willing to work.

    I wish I could be working now and collecting a paycheck. I could sure use the money, as I have debt to pay off and I'd like to buy some things I'm deprived of. I can't even afford decent medical care or to eat something besides beans and peanut butter for half of my meals. I loathe that I'm unemployed chronically, that I can't work, and that I have to depend on my parents to subsist. I know that it is a very rotten situation.

    I bet you don't like me telling those details, but I'm telling them so that the others who you ambushed me in the presence of know, that I DON'T HAVE A DAMN CHOICE, SO I AM ENDURING IT FOR A LONG TIME. You should act like you remember what I told you about me in the e-mails we exchanged. I don't care if my mother throws me out. She couldn't help me. I barely care anymore what happens to me.

    I can't be a real man. Manhood is a fading thing nowadays and a lot of it is going away. I endure the ravages of mental disability, which disproportionately afflicts males and keeps them down. I hate it when someone complains that someone else whines, when the person whining doesn't have the means to get out of the problem, while the person complaining about the whining has all the privileges and consequent success, and pretends to be so decent, while going on with their "suck it up" attitude.

    If I'm so unwilling to do menial work, why the hell do I do so many ridiculous tasks around the home almost whenever asked? I've probably done more chores and tasks around the home as a child than most of the other spoiled suburban children! I've dreamed about working since I was 11 years old. I never wanted to be a bum!

    I've been willing to follow orders from others for a long while. I can't help that my efforts are useless. I won't take orders from you or any of the others around here. How dare you accuse me of thinking I'm better than other people! I've been thinking the opposite for many years. What are you trying to do to me with your bullshit lies?

    By Blogger lurker, at 5:20 PM  

  • Clay, why do you make comments on posts after I do, immediately bashing me? What does that look like? I've looked at his blog and some of the blogs on his blogroll. I admire Mr. Doherty and others like him for their efforts.

    I don't attack them because they aren't cowardly hardship loving liars. They also don't make wild statements and imply things, then claim they never held such views when someone points out that such views are apparently repugnant.

    If I were to be "friendly" with you guys, what would you say about my dissent, if you don't think friendliness and dissent are mutually exclusive?

    By Blogger lurker, at 5:30 PM  

  • There is absolutely no way that impairment is something to be fine with, or that it isn't negative or misfortune.

    @Lurker: Are you OK with your flight impairment? That's one the examples from the post.

    What you're talking about are impairments that most people don't have. Now, think about why these impairments matter to you, whereas impairments that other people also have, don't matter as much or at all.

    I know, I know, it has to do with "fairness" somehow.

    By Blogger Joseph, at 5:33 PM  

  • Anon, I never tried to argue that traits are impairments. I think an impairment as it is called, is a disability when it's a basic, almost necessary skill, in the system constructed through societal activity.

    I've looked at enough of these sources and they don't change my mind. A lot of the sources are extensive but don't always address likely important and fundamental questions. When they do answer such questions in the only way they can, they either justify unfairness or go against basic impulses. I am not convinced by the propaganda either.

    By Blogger lurker, at 5:38 PM  

  • Joseph, nobody has that capability so it doesn't matter, and such capabilities aren't inherently due to intellect. What impairments that other people also have are you talking about?

    By Blogger lurker, at 5:45 PM  

  • "I think an impairment as it is called, is a disability when it's a basic, almost necessary skill,"

    So, how do you determine what skills are 'necessary' in different societal and cultural contexts,

    how do you determine the value of having/not having the skill within different social and cultural contexts,

    , how do you account for different values being placed on different skill presentations, even though objective performance is the same? (to the point where presentation can actually force a negative effect on performance)


    If you cannot answer why impairments of the same quantative effect are not given the same qualative rating, then you really aren't even scratching the surface of the social model. I've even provided real world examples to you before. You've yet to answer competantly using a reference that isn't yourself.

    Ironically, you're actually the poster-boy for the social model. You're clearly functional enough to obtain a job, yet despite this there's "something" about you that just puts employers off. You're judged on appearance not actual function.

    "I've looked at enough of these sources and they don't change my mind"

    I doubt it, you continously show a lack of basic understanding of social systems. This may actually be an impairment of your own and may have contributed to your lack of quality of life.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:52 PM  

  • "Joseph, nobody has that capability so it doesn't matter, "

    Oooh, you're so close to getting it!

    You're wrong of course, as the possibility of human flight has different cultural values attached to it dependant on the values and norms of the time, and the technology and mythology of the relevant culture.

    But just expand that thinking to any other trait and you'll begin to understand why your objections to the social model are just based on navel-gazing bullcrap.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:57 PM  

  • Lurker me old pal me old beauty (that is a cultural reference which is somewhat exclusively British and reserved to us over 50's)

    it don't come more menial than wiping arses, and wiping arses for no pay I might add.

    If you had the misfortune to shit yourself in public, I might even wipe your arse for you. But I don't think your ego would allow that.

    Manhood, Schmanhood? who do you think the viagra ads are aimed at?

    Has beens like me :)

    You have not even started out yet to be writing yourself off.

    I am in physical pain every day, do I bear it because I want to? No! but because I have to, I have no choice, and anyway it is nothing much compared to what it might be.

    Who can I blame for my physical decline? God? The government, big pharma, the martians?

    No the fault may be in part mine, for disregarding my own welfare when certain things needed doing.

    Whether I regret that or not, whether that was a good choice or not, whether I knew what it would lead to... well the point is I cannot reverse any of it, I have to live within my limits and do what I can.

    What do you want lurker? apart from attention. What would redeem your life?

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 6:02 PM  

  • Anon, it's necessary if most people need it to get accomplished, the basic necessary tasks that almost anyone has to do. Such tasks may vary over time through different inventions and modes of accomplishing things, but generally, the underlying abilities that make those tasks possible, likely were always needed in order to be applied to different tasks.

    Culture doesn't have much to do with it. The value of an ability seems to arise from its difficulty/intensity, and to what extent it is part of skills that are necessary for self sufficiency, or of skills that can accomplish very important or great/innovative things.

    I don't really know what skill presentations are. I don't know what you mean by quantitative effect and qualitative rating.

    I am not competent enough for a job. I messed up a lot at the simple jobs I had and was very confused at them. I know what is going on in social systems even though I don't have even the most rudimentary ability to participate in them. Don't try to make a pathology out of my dissent and refusal to be submissive to your dominance. I know why I'm in the gutter and you can't fool me about that anymore.

    I'm not wrong. Flight has nothing to do with this and "culture" doesn't make it so. If you're so right about this all, why do so few other people really believe in the social model?

    By Blogger lurker, at 6:23 PM  

  • laurentius, what does your physical pain have to do with this? What is the point of all of what you just said (if you have a point)? Nothing will redeem my life. I consider myself scarred from all I endured. I now want to prevent you from oppressing other people with the ideas you want to be enforced.

    By Blogger lurker, at 6:31 PM  

  • you are a joke Lurker, if you think your mental anguish trumps physical pain, or vice versa.

    What is so uniquely shitty about you that you wallow in it and blame all those who can be more positive about it?

    You have no arguments left. Who is doing the oppressing, it is certainly not me, it is you, you are opressing yourself and complaining when others do not drag themselves down to that level.

    Any way I am growing tired of you now, I do not think you are genuine at all.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 6:46 PM  

  • laurentius, so I'm supposed to think whatever you want me to think just cause of that? You aren't the only one with physical pain. I went about a year with on and off joint pains. I've had frequent painful ear infections lately that hurt to deal with. I don't know of any other people who try to guilt others into agreeing with them by bringing up their chronic pain. I can't even be sure if you are for real about it.

    Who the hell did I blame? Why be positive about it? What the fuck is so positive about it? You can't compose a real cogent answer to that. That's why you hurl perverted insults. I consider you an oppressor if you eventually get your way as a result of your rhetoric.

    Who else has a reason to drag themselves down to the "level" I'm at? For what reason should I be all cheery and happy about nothing, like I'm in la la land as if things are fine? I refuse to be deluded. You're full of shit up to your eyeballs.

    By Blogger lurker, at 7:03 PM  

  • Billy said:

    "Clay, what does my "loser attitude" have to do with anything?"


    It is self-fulfilling.
    Okay, I'll tell you about one of the "low points" in my life - - -

    In '86 and '87, I worked for about a year and a half as a painting subcontractor to the local utility company. There were 6 to 8 of us subcontractors, working under the supervision of 2 leadmen and a foreman, who were actual employees of the utility company.

    One of the leadmen was nice, treated us all in a professional, business-like manner. His older brother was the other leadman, and he wasn't "nice" at all. He was nowhere near as intelligent as his younger brother.

    One day, we were working on really tall scaffolding, (read "vertical ladder"), painting the beams holding up a wall around a nuclear dome. I was climbing up the scaffolding, and this ignorant, cruel older brother and a fellow co-worker started tossing things down on me, small things, paint brushes, paint can lids, pieces of debris. This is the sort of thing that happens to Aspies, y'know.

    I had been working Hard, and doing well, and I really didn't feel like being picked on by some jerk just because he could. (And this wasn't the first time he'd thrown stuff at me on the job.)

    So when we had our next break, I took the opportunity to report the unsafe behavior to the company Safety Representative. A couple of days later, the Foreman of the painting department took me to see his boss, where I was asked to recount what had happened. This was in mid-October of '87.

    They didn't want to be too obvious, so they waited until 2 days before Christmas to lay me off!!!

    Two days After Christmas, my brother-in-law called to tell me that my father had died. I had to borrow $100 from him so I could drive the 500 miles back home to attend the funeral.

    On the way back home after the funeral, I had a serious talk with myself. I was 41, and only had enough for the next month's rent. I thought back on my last "romance", back in '84, when I didn't have enough money to take her out to dinner, though I'd been working hard at a piano factory for a couple of years. Things had to change - *I* had to change!

    There was an old printing factory that someone was converting into an "urban mall" about a block away from my apartment. I went to the office, and asked to speak with the owner. It took awhile to get in to talk with him, but when I did, I didn't waste His time. I told him, "I'm a painter, and a good one, I think. I'll work for you for one day for Nothing, you just watch to see what I get done, and if you like what you see, I'd like a job." I didn't even fill out an application, but I DID fill out the W-2 form the next day!

    He started me at 6 bucks an hour. I wasn't shy about asking for raises, and got him up to $12 about 3 years later. I was a Hard worker, he didn't want to lose me.

    And I still had to put up with co-workers giving me a hard time, but I also made them respect me, because they couldn't do what I did. The couple of guys who Had been doing the painting were assigned to other tasks.

    I haven't been 'broke' since. All it took was an attitude adjustment, brought on by necessity, and sheer fear of being homeless.

    By Blogger Clay, at 7:07 PM  

  • Billy, there's a song by Sade from the '80s called Feel No Pain. She describes how not being able to get a job makes people feel like they have no future and can do nothing but "stay home and listen to the blues." I'd say that is about where you are now. And I don't mean that as an insult; it happens to a lot of people, for different reasons.

    Just to be clear, this is my own personal observation and has nothing to do with "ND" or disability rights or any kind of ideology. You can take it for whatever you think it's worth, and I won't be offended if you disagree with me.

    Having experience and skills is only a small part of what a manager looks for in the interview. It's OK not to have a lot of experience or skills, if you can convince the manager that you're able to learn the job and handle the work. But if you go into the interview with the attitude that you are not competent enough for the job, then that attitude will come across in your voice and body language, and you'll be rejected no matter what sort of experience you have.

    Once again, I don't blame you for feeling like you're trapped and have no chance to succeed. Being out of work for a long time can put anybody's mind into a negative spiral.

    Have you tried doing volunteer work? That would give you experience and skills and references that you could later use to get a paying job, while also building up your confidence. Maybe you can find a volunteer position that would be a good match for your interests. You mentioned that you love being around other species; how about working for the Humane Society or some other animal welfare charity? Perhaps they could arrange transportation for you.

    By Blogger abfh, at 7:14 PM  

  • "Such tasks may vary over time through different inventions and modes of accomplishing things"

    Bingo!

    You're starting to understand the social model a bit more.

    We can work on this!

    "why do so few other people really believe in the social model"

    Very few people outside of sociology or disability advocacy are even aware of it, but this doesn't mean that they don't hold social model compatable beliefs, such as the WHO, HPC, NMC and others.

    Remember - the social model is a description of how disability is defined, not a prescriptive set of beliefs about traits and what we should do to help people who lack those traits.

    "I'm not wrong. Flight has nothing to do with this and "culture" doesn't make it so"

    You missed the point, as always. The value placed on lack of ability to fly is determined by the importance the prevailing culture places on the desire to fly, regardless of whether it's acheivable or not. You are wrong if you think culture has nothing to do with this - just think about something that has changed over time, like the attitudes to Downs syndrome or towards people with mobility problems.

    I'm not pathologising your dissent. I honestly cannot see any evidence that you are capable of thinking beyond the concrete.

    "quantitative effect and qualitative rating."

    Quantity is the prescense or absence of a skill. Qualatative is the value placed on that skill.

    People can lack a trait without being seen as impaired, until society demands that trait - as you've already agreed.

    A triat thus does not become an impairment until it's in demand.

    You've pretty much agreed with the bare bones of the social model in your last few posts, yet somehow you still object to it.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:15 PM  

  • Lurker, you are a Troll, because a Troll creates argument out of nothing as you do.

    Your only argument is to reflect and pervert, to be a shadow, a chimera.

    Whether you know that or not I don't know, but everybody else does.

    Just tell us what you want, do want a corrupt bankers golden pension, or a martyrs death to be slung on a dungheap after being broken on the wheel like some medieval saint, or maybe you want to president (thank goodness you are not)

    You have not said one thing about what you think would improve your situation except to be perpetually grumbling that the grass is greener somewhere else. Who is the nasty troll who is stopping you Billy boy, you are the Troll selbst, but then you clearly enjoy that role else you would not be here.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 7:29 PM  

  • Clay, I still don't know why I shouldn't have a loser attitude. I don't see how that situation of yours that you described shows that I need a better attitude.

    By Blogger lurker, at 7:30 PM  

  • Clay life is a piece of shit, don't go tell anyone to take a walk in the spring air, the wind is too cold and there was hail this morning :(

    And waiting for the buses, don't talk to me about buses, brain the size of a planet and I have to wait for the bus. Not only that when it comes there are other people on it, can you imagine that, other people on the bus, and this doesn't just happen occasionaly it happens all the time, and then, people have the temerity to be sitting in my accustomed seat, gawd how I hate bus journeys, not to mention the chewing gum on the pavement, the piped music in the shops and the malls, the sky being the wrong colour, the buildings the wrong shapes.....

    I really do not know why I bother to get out of bed, but then you would not want to sleep in my bed, too cold, too hard, the wrong shape, the wrong direction, too much air in the room, a cieling that wants repairing, too much air above the roof and asteroids out there somewhere, just waiting !!!!!!

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 8:05 PM  

  • abfh, I don't think I'd succeed at volunteering. I once did volunteering when trying to get something like that to put on a school application, but I didn't do well at the volunteering position. I don't think I could even keep a job because of my incompetence, which was revealed at my other jobs. I'm not sure what kind of attitudes I had when going on job interviews.

    anon, I don't know what culture would put value on flying. About society demanding abilities, I was meaning that the technological level of society puts value on skills. But I think the underlying mental abilities that those skills are composed of, still would be necessary for other skills through different technology needed in other periods of time.

    I still repudiate the social model due to its faulty attribution to the demand of society. Capabilities aren't due to society's enabling of people to do them. Society doesn't have abilities in demand for arbitrary reasons. I think abilities are valued as they are for meaningful and decent reasons. I don't like the social model's contradiction of the basic dislike that people have of lacking ability.

    By Blogger lurker, at 8:15 PM  

  • Billy said:

    "Clay, I still don't know why I shouldn't have a loser attitude. I don't see how that situation of yours that you described shows that I need a better attitude."

    It took a lot of nerve to go and ask that man for a job. It took confidence to offer to work for a day for nothing - just for a chance to show what I could do. I'll bet he was intrigued by my offer, to see what I would do. But I know that he saw that I was desperate for a job, hungry, and willing to work hard to get and keep a job. I didn't let him down, but more important, I didn't let myself down, not anymore!

    But yeah, you're right, you should hold onto that loser attitude of yours. I'm convinced that you would find some way to fuck up a wet dream! Ya prolly don't even know how to wank it, cause nobody ever showed you. Poor Billy!

    PS to abfh and dedj - I see your compassion and applaud it, but I think his mom kowtowed to his tantrums to his detriment. Time for some Tough Love.

    By Blogger Clay, at 8:16 PM  

  • laurentius, go ahead, call me a troll for daring to disagree with you. I made an argument over the horrific crap that was spewed and you can't deal with it. I want you to stop promoting unfairness. I don't expect anything to happen to improve my situation. Being mentally competent would improve my situation.

    By Blogger lurker, at 8:23 PM  

  • Clay, that doesn't apply to me. I can't do anything. I don't have anything to offer an employer. I don't know how to impress an employer. I don't even know what to do walking into an office looking for a job. I can't do anything to pull myself out of my problem.

    By Blogger lurker, at 8:32 PM  

  • I did not initially volunteer out of any altruistic motives, my Mum was very astute in motivating me out of enlightened self interest as she convinced me that since the volunteering entailed going on a course, I would learn something to my advantage, about my situation, whether or not I eventually went on to follow through.

    The volunteering gave me something beyond price, in that I discovered I had a value, I had a role, that I could help people, and people appreciated that, and that the people I helped were the same as me, and they appreciated the help all the more because I and my colleagues were not high and mighty social care types, but living in the same world as them, dealing with the same systems, the same crap.

    Ok I did not always get on with those supervising me, because being me that is impossible, I committed social faux pas a plenty, because that is what I do.

    I probably have a bigger propensity than anyone I know for not putting up with any crap from anybody, and giving them the full nine yards, expletives and colourful (though anatomically impossible) profanities included.

    That is the way I am made and there is nothing wrong with that, even if it don't set me on the big highway to a semi detached hedgebound house, 2.4 kids and an SUV (well I did have the SUV for a while)

    It is the road less travelled and that has made all the difference since to purloin another poets words the paths of glory lead but to the grave.

    I hope this is keeping your senses entertained, are you getting off on all this?

    Keep your zipper zipped, you never know who is watching :)

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 8:35 PM  

  • Billy said:

    "I can't do anything. I don't have anything to offer an employer. I don't know how to impress an employer. I don't even know what to do walking into an office looking for a job. I can't do anything to pull myself out of my problem."

    Why don't you print that up and put it on your refrigerator? Repeat it over and over every day like a mantra, until you know it by heart. Say it every morning, every night before you go to bed, and let it fill your thoughts every time you have an idle moment. And if you do all that, how long do you think you could stand the tedium, the ennui, of being (you)?

    Ah, but you have an EXCUSE,
    you're - - um, possibly autistic, definitely mentally "impaired" or something. You should ask your Mom to put that on your headstone.

    By Blogger Clay, at 8:51 PM  

  • lurker,

    So

    you agree with people who complain about you because they are right that you are a loser with a bad attitude.

    You agree with society because their standards that make you a loser are good ones.

    Who you don't agree with is people who question the arbitrary nature of society's evaluations (the evaluations which consider you a looser) and believe you have potential?

    Sorry I have trouble following. I have so few lucid moments.

    By Blogger Ed, at 8:52 PM  

  • Ed, I agree with people who are willing to acknowledge the real problems. I'm a loser because I lack what others have. I don't care if people tell me the standards aren't real or don't matter in order to make me feel better. I'll still be envious. I hate being deprived of such basic things. Society's evaluations aren't arbitrary. They don't believe I have potential. Nobody would think that. I am not impressed by that patronizing of me.

    By Blogger lurker, at 9:02 PM  

  • Clay and Lurker

    May I ask both of you a weird question? This has been bothering me.

    Clay, if I'm wrong in saying this about what you're saying but you're saying to lurker to have one of the value traits of "never give up" or to have the value of persistence.

    Lurker, if I'm wrong in saying this please correct me. You're saying you're being made to be put on a fools journey like the story Moby Dick. You're saying that sometimes the definition of insanity is to do something over and over again and achieving different results. Am I correct on this?

    I have a question about both of these values for both of you.

    Is there a way to objectively tell when to never give up like Clay suggests or to do like Lurker suggests and consider "not giving up" is a fool's journey like Captain Ahab in Moby Dick.

    Captain Ahab never gave up in trying to hunt down Moby Dick but this persistence cost Captain Ahab and the rest of his crew save one member.

    My question is when do you know to keep persisting like Clay suggests and when do you know to stop like Lurker suggests?

    This is my problem with taking values like "never give up" as an absolute True or False for all cases since it can contradict other values sets.

    This is what I want to write my paper on to show that these values when taken as absolutes are more detrimental than beneficial.

    If the ND movement is to progress personally I don't think we need to accept these values as absolutes but as true and false in certain cases.

    I think this is the actual problem with American Society. I don't know about the rest of the world though.

    Does everyone see my point here?

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 1:01 AM  

  • Sorry Cube, but neither of us has said what you think we said. I'd suggest you read it all again, and read that link to "Cat in a Dog's World" I gave to see what was said there too. And google Billy Cresp to see what he's said on LB/RB, change.org, and Joseph's blog. And please don't use my name and his in the same breath.

    By Blogger Clay, at 3:34 AM  

  • Clay, please try and not be too blunt with Cube Demon. He's still trying to make sense of everything and does come from metaphorical left field sometimes with the way he reads things.

    Cresp, there is a reason why you are up for an ASD Award from me (a negative one that is) - and you have demonstrated your credentials admirably throughout this thread that got hot before I even knew it was here!!

    At the top of it all is one simple thing - a cowardice level that matches Jonathan Mitchell.

    You've given up. "Oh I'm impaired, please pity me I have it so hard!" You want the NT world's attention because that's all you understand and all you want to understand. You've learnt how to hate yourself, so you refuse to learn anything else. I don't neccessarily agree with Clay about getting a job because you're so far down no one would employ you. But that's YOUR fault. Not the fault of your condition. Because you refuse to fight the people who put you in that spot to begin with. The NT world.

    Sure there's a problem, but you don't just sit back and do nothing about it! YOU FIGHT!! EVERY HUMAN BEING has potential! No exceptions, and to say otherwise is a disgusting indictment of your own psyche. At 25 you have heaps of time to do the most important thing. Stop hating yourself, and a good start is to stop hating your condition. Start hating the real enemy - those who say you have no potential. Those who put you down because of your condition. THEY are your real enemy.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 7:03 AM  

  • Clay

    I apologize for misunderstanding.

    I am on your side and I do support ND.

    Clay, If I came across that I insulted you then again I apologize. I need major, major help my support center has been no good.

    Clay, the truth is I have major problems with the pragmatics of the English language. This means I know the meaning of a word or phrase but I can end up taking the meaning to an extreme it shouldn't be taken to.

    Again I apologize. All I was doing was asking questions because I have heard these value sets thrown around all my life. I know their meaning but I end up misapplying the usage of the meaning.

    Here is an example: "You're entitled to nothing."

    1. I can end up thinking that the word "nothing" thought up as an entitlement in itself.

    2. Here is another way in which how I can be confused and see this phrase as inconsistent.

    a. I am not entitled to murder someone
    b. I am not entitled not to murder someone.




    Another example is selfishness which means thinking of only yourself and your feelings. My thinking can come to this. Let's say that I end up becoming unemployable. I can come to this conclusion. I could say that it would be selfish of me to stay alive and be a burden on 1. my fiance 2. my family and 3. society. It would be selfish of me to stay alive if I can't work and have society to shoulder my load for me.

    I have been told I think too deeply about this stuff but I don't know how deep to go or not to go and again I am sorry for insulting you.


    "Clay, please try and not be too blunt with Cube Demon. He's still trying to make sense of everything and does come from metaphorical left field sometimes with the way he reads things."

    Timelord, what does a metaphorical left field mean and how this phrase's meaning correctly?

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 7:51 AM  

  • Cube, I would believe that doing the same thing over and over while expecting a different result should be considered insanity. I don't know if there's an objective way to determine when to quit, but I think that the determination of that is up to a judgment of the situation to see if a reasonable possibility of achieving a goal exists. I agree that such values shouldn't be absolutes.

    Timelord, I'm not expecting pity, I don't care a lot for it, and I've known for a while that I won't get pity. What am I supposed to learn? What can you teach me? There's nothing I can do. I really don't know what to do and have no options.

    There's no way my problem isn't the fault of my condition. How is it my fault otherwise? You don't want to acknowledge that my condition precludes me from doing things, so you can talk as if all individuals have a chance to succeed, and then consequently imply that the unsuccessful are degenerates and that the elites are so hard working and diligent.

    The NT world isn't the perpetrator nor is the autism world or whatever world. It's the smart/competent people's privileges and dominance that put me where I am. Even if I were to fight like you said, how am I supposed to do it, and how am I supposed to get anything out of it? You didn't get anything out of it, and I'm nowhere near as competent as you.

    Not all people have potential or enough of it. I'm not going to fall for that flowery rhetoric. I refuse to ignore that potential is so unevenly distributed among people. The real enemy usually doesn't tell me the truth which is that I don't have any potential. I consider my real enemy those who want me to be in my condition. Why shouldn't I hate my condition which constrains and degrades me? What does it matter that I have so many years left when I never even really grew up?

    By Blogger lurker, at 11:56 AM  

  • Timelord said:

    "Clay, please try and not be too blunt with Cube Demon."

    Actually, I like Cube Demon, and didn't think I was being "rough" on him. Wasn't my intention. Maybe because it was very late, and I had been talking with a jerk for too long?

    Cube, paraphrasing what I would say to Lurker as "Never give up" is simply incorrect. More like, "Don't give up on yourself before you fuckin' START!" Also, comparing his "position" to Capt. Ahab is glorifying cowardice and slothfulness.

    I don't know if Billy wants pity, but he certainly wants attention, and loves to argue. Those are the core values of a TROLL.

    Here's what he said in a discussion on change.org:


    "There is no justification for sugarcoating what reality is like for autistics, to prevent people from using a prenatal test to selectively abort when it becomes available. ~ ~ I'd like for there to be a prenatal cure devised someday.

    Posted by Billy Cresp on 01/12/2009 @ 01:52PM PST

    Ya gotta wonder if some curebie organization is paying him for saying such things. He has since claimed that he wasn't saying that autistics should be summarily aborted upon detection, but only cured before they're born. How is that anything but a fantasy, to perform prenatal brain surgery, or hormonal therapy, before they even can accurately predict outcomes?

    Maybe Billy should have been aborted, maybe he'd have been happier that way??? He can now choose to abort himself, or get off his fucking ass and do something to improve his lot in life! He needs to realize that not all autistics are as wretched and miserable as he is, and that HE is responsible for his attitude of wretchedness and miserableness.

    By Blogger Clay, at 2:12 PM  

  • Cube Demon said:

    "Clay, If I came across that I insulted you then again I apologize."

    No apology needed, Cube. I've had many misunderstandings too, comes with the territory, I guess. I was a bit perplexed at having to use "us" and "we", with Lurker being the other part of that pronoun. Made me feel 'dirty' somehow. :-)


    Timelord said (to Lurker):

    "you have demonstrated your credentials admirably throughout this thread that got hot before I even knew it was here!!"

    I was wondering where the heck you were! Hey, have you seen Mitchell's blog, where he calls you and I the "looniest of the ND loonies", (something like that)? The weenie can't win in a debate with us, so just disses us on his blog where we can't comment. Nuthin' but cowardice.

    By Blogger Clay, at 2:25 PM  

  • Lurker, isulting strangers on the internet will not solve any of the problems in your life.

    Get some counselling and get your self-esteem back.

    Find someting you enjoy doing and do it.

    You're not enjoying this and it's not changing anyone's mind. It's obviously making you upset. And you are upsetting other people.

    You have more potential than you realise. You can write very well, when you're not absorbed in incoherent self-loathing.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 4:23 PM  

  • I haven't read all 68 comments of this thread, largely because most of it is close to incomprehensible for me. But i would like to comment on the actual subject matter of the post...

    While i agree that the social model can sometimes be *seen* as "negative", i think this is often a straw man, coming from the same sort of position as those who think that anything which brings to light injustice or oppression is somehow "being negative" (which feels like shooting the messenger to me). I think this "affirmation model", far from being entirely separate from or even opposed to the social model (as Dora Raymaker seems to want to present it), has in fact been present within the social model from the beginning; see for instance the slogan "Celebrate Difference With Pride".

    I also think it's possible to view one's own impairments (or aspects of one's own impairments) as "negative" without being some sort of traitor to the social model - for example, people with impairments which cause chronic pain or limit lifespan, or who acquire impairments in traumatic incidents as adults, are often put off the social model precisely because it is often presented as if acknowledging any negative aspect of impairment is some sort of blasphemy - when it's perfectly possible to support the social model 100%, want social transformation to remove barriers, end discrimination, etc, while still preferring oneself not to be impaired. (Liz Crow's essay "Including All Of Our Lives: Renewing The Social Model Of Disability" is, for me, the definitive text on this: http://www.roaring-girl.com/socialmodel.pdf). We need to recognise that not *every* disabled person feels able to celebrate their difference with pride, but that that does not necessarily make them enemies of the disability rights movement.

    (Having said that, self-hatred such as lurker's has absolutely no place within the disability rights movement - there is a huge difference between the perfectly understandable "self-hatred" that we all feel due to internalised oppression, and the sort that validates bigotry and oppression by hating one's own kind. Being a member of an oppressed group does not preclude one from being an oppressor of it...)

    Anyway, i don't have a problem with the term "impairment", because i think there is an important and necessary distinction between impairment and disability (tho of course, i appreciate i'm coming from a very British academic perspective there, and perhaps a "British" attitude to the use of terms (in that i have noticed that North Americans seem to have a much greater like of euphemisms and fear or avoidance of "negative-sounding" language than us UK English speakers do)). I do however agree with the conclusion of the first "anonymous"...

    By Blogger shiva, at 5:31 PM  

  • Clay, I DON'T HAVE THE MEANS TO HELP MYSELF. I can't improve myself with what minimal capabilities I have. What way can I make that clear enough? Why are you so out of touch? You don't know a lot what it is like to lack basic capabilties, and to have to deal with severe impairments 24/7. Who is paying you to come here and harass people who favor cure? I wonder if the abuse from your family that you endured growing up motivated you to do the sadistic things you do around here. Why are you so against cure? Who are you to deem what is fantasy or not?

    Anon, then what will solve my problems. I never claimed insulting strangers would. But I don't mind insulting people who I think deserve it. I don't need counseling. I don't need their indoctrination and their subduing of me. I don't want any of that phony childish self-esteem. I want to make it apparent that there is disagreement with your side about these things, for others who view the rhetoric that is expressed by your side. I don't have any potential. I can't write well. How would you know how I write when I'm not absorbed in self-loathing, considering that you likely never have seen me write without being absorbed in that, and you probably wouldn't deny that all of the things I write around here were done while I was absorbed in that?

    By Blogger lurker, at 6:00 PM  

  • Cube Demon;

    Timelord, what does a metaphorical left field mean and how this phrase's meaning correctly?

    It means it came from an unexpected area. I was using it as a "catch all" term to help Clay understand you a little more.

    Clay;

    Hey, have you seen Mitchell's blog, where he calls you and I the "looniest of the ND loonies", (something like that)? The weenie can't win in a debate with us, so just disses us on his blog where we can't comment. Nuthin' but cowardice.

    He deleted that post, but I grabbed a cache version and my response is here;

    http://mitchellisafool.blogspot.com/2009/03/deleted-post.html

    Cresp;

    There's nothing I can do. I really don't know what to do and have no options.

    Bullshit. There's ALWAYS something you can do. Like I said you've given up. You don't know yourself very well obviously because you haven't explored yourself. So get off your rear end and do it! NEVER give up! Only cowards do that.

    There's no way my problem isn't the fault of my condition.

    There's no way it's not when YOU have given up. YOU. Your condition can't give up for goodness sake! It's inanimate!

    You don't want to acknowledge that my condition precludes me from doing things

    Again - bullshit. YOU do that. You are not precluded from doing anything. Only some things. NOT everything. What - does it preclude you from breathing? Walking? Laughing? Living?

    you can talk as if all individuals have a chance to succeed, and then consequently imply that the unsuccessful are degenerates and that the elites are so hard working and diligent.

    Excuse me, but do I have a job? No - but do I sit on my duff and do nothing? NO! I get out there and do something else while fixing problems up!! You can do that as well. You're not a degenerate - unless of course you CHOOSE to be one. Which right now you are and therefore you deserve everything you get until YOU fix it! And don't tell me or anyone else that you can't. YOU CAN!

    Not all people have potential or enough of it.

    What do you want out of life?

    The real enemy usually doesn't tell me the truth which is that I don't have any potential.

    No, the real enemy does precisely that by saying nothing and leaving you to wallow in your foolishness. They know you've given up so they give up on you. And they shouldn't - especially the ones whose job it is to help you.

    I consider my real enemy those who want me to be in my condition.

    Wrong. Nature made that choice for you. Your biggest enemy right now is YOU.

    Why shouldn't I hate my condition which constrains and degrades me?

    Society does that - not your condition. And you're letting society win.

    What does it matter that I have so many years left when I never even really grew up?

    I'm past 40 and I still consider that I have time. So at 25 you have zero excuse!! Expand your interests, expand your horizons and DO SOMETHING!

    I DON'T HAVE THE MEANS TO HELP MYSELF.

    BULLSHIT!

    Get counselling as has been suggested.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 7:03 PM  

  • Missed this from Cresp;

    I don't need their indoctrination and their subduing of me.

    You've already been subdued. They'll pull you out of it.

    I don't want any of that phony childish self-esteem.

    Self esteem is exactly what you need. It's not childish - it's a crucial personality factor.

    I don't have any potential.

    You do fine with the Internet!

    I can't write well.

    Does anyone else think that Cresp doesn't write well? It doesn't matter what you say in specifics. You write well enough.

    I repeat - get counselling.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 7:10 PM  

  • Timelord, it's not like I'm never going to do anything again. I don't know what to do right now. Don't make me explain this to you like you're clueless. I am mentally disabled which means I can't do a lot of basic things. Period. What am I supposed to do to make things better for me? You're all talk with no detail.

    Nature isn't solely responsible, as people have control and influence over nature. So, society isn't hurting me in the way you imply. Your "do something" and blame the victim attitude, is siding with society's contribution to the problem.

    What the hell is a counselor going to do for me? I want to EARN self-esteem by accomplishing something. I've had it with this obsession with personality. I don't always do well with the internet.

    By Blogger lurker, at 7:26 PM  

  • "Cube, paraphrasing what I would say to Lurker as "Never give up" is simply incorrect. More like, "Don't give up on yourself before you fuckin' START!" Also, comparing his "position" to Capt. Ahab is glorifying cowardice and slothfulness."

    Hey Clay

    I understand now what you were trying to say. You've limited this value set and made this more consistent.

    Lurker, Clay is right don't quit anything before you start. How do you know what you can do unless you start doing it? Lurker, I'm a very depressed man myself. I have crap I'm trying to deal with here. I have been trying to do something about it. I went to my autism center and I have yet to receive my report from them.

    Lurker, there are other ways to self-improve in my opinion besides material wealth. For example, intelligence and character. This is the main problem I see with the USA today. My country has become more concerned about material things and looks than anything else. I say who fucking cares. Lurker, you may be eating beans. At least you're eating, right? Why not do some reading about things like philosophy. Lurker, read about Socrates and the Socratic method.

    Clay, I appreciate you answer my questions and I was not trying to glorify slothfulness. I was just trying to obtain information and you provided me away to limit the set of never giving up, N.

    Lurker I agree with Clay's values but I don't deal in the absolute of the values. If I did deal in the absolute then it would contradict itself and other value sets. The absolute of the values means that all members of the value set are all true or all false.

    Lurker, you are dealing in an absolute right now and so is John Best Jr. Lurker you say give up no matter what. John Best Jr. is on a captain ahab type of quest to cure his son no matter the cost. Lurker, you're dealing in an absolute on one end and John Best Jr. is dealing in an absolute on the opposite end.

    Lurker, timelord may be unemployed but he is fighting so timelord can be employed again and so can we all be employed. Lurker, Timelord is succeeding in a different way by finding a cause greater than himself.

    What do I know lurker, by the NT standards I'm just a dumb schmuck, lol?

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 8:28 PM  

  • >> What am I supposed to do to make things better for me? <<

    Stop blaming your condition would be a good start.

    Timelord, when is the John Best forum coming back from maintenance?

    By Blogger Matt Hogan, at 8:40 PM  

  • Lurker, I would advise you as well to get counselling. I know I need it and you seem like you need it way more than I do.

    Lurker, you do have value. In fact, you helped me with something. You explained to me that NTs sometimes roll up 2 words or phrases into one word or phrase. For example, you showed me how the word values was rolled up into the phrase social skills.

    I discovered by being told by one of timelord's friends that popular belief is being rolled up into the phrase "common sense."

    Lurker you have value. You had knowledge I lacked and I appreciate that.

    For common sense if you know stuff like "don't stick your hand in a blazing hot fire" then you have common sense and I don't care what anyone says. It's the American Media and the Popular press who is doing all of this bullshit and most people in the USA swallow this up.

    Lurker, do your own research and always be prepared to be wrong about anything.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 8:48 PM  

  • Cube, I did start and try things and I didn't succeed. I tried a lot. I like material things a lot, and think it's a legitimate concern. To me, intelligence is no less of a concern. If only I had some of that I wouldn't be in this situation.

    I wasn't really complaining about what I was eating. I was telling all those details to belie what Clay said as he tried to make me out to be some lunatic bum, to show that I'd love to get out of my unemployed and stagnant situation. I've done some reading occasionally. But reading is very difficult for me and I don't remember what I read much, so I don't do that a lot.

    I'm not sure if I'm dealing with an absolute in my quitting. I don't see how there is any practical or probable way out of the hole I am in now. I wonder if I'll have a chance at things in time. I wouldn't say I'll never have a chance at anything.

    I don't know why I should fight as timelord says I should when there is no helpful result in sight. I didn't think he had a way for me to succeed in such a conflict when he hasn't benefited from it himself.

    By Blogger lurker, at 9:01 PM  

  • Matt, what logical reason could I have to not blame my condition, which actually caused my inabilities which make me unsuccessful?

    By Blogger lurker, at 9:11 PM  

  • Lurker

    I don't remember much when in a class lecture or when I have to listen to someone. In fact, when a dialog takes place I don't remember much of it.

    I am alot better when I read and when I do.

    Lurker, maybe you're not a visual learner. I know I am not an auditory learner at all. Lurker, you may be solely a tactile learner. It may be that you have poor auditory and visual skills and you learn solely by doing.

    This may be your issue Lurker. I don't know.

    Lurker you need to see a counselor prompto.

    I know you don't have money to pay for one. I don't know what to tell you on that.

    Does anyone here have any suggestions for lurker to obtain counseling because I am very concerned for him.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 9:25 PM  

  • Lurker, If you ever become suicidal please call 911, I implore you. Lurker, I've been keeping that option for myself.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 9:27 PM  

  • Cube, if I were to be suicidal, I would have done it a long time ago. What would a counselor do for me? I've been to numerous unhelpful therapists already.

    By Blogger lurker, at 9:46 PM  

  • >> Matt, what logical reason could I have to not blame my condition, which actually caused my inabilities which make me unsuccessful? <<

    What inabilities have they caused? The inability to learn? You've learnt to use a computer. You've learnt to connect to the Internet. You have a capacity to learn so you can not blame your condition for any inabilities to prevent you from a decent life.

    By Blogger Matt Hogan, at 10:40 PM  

  • Here ya go, Lurker. Luckily for you, you're a New York resident.

    Contact these people. Go to them and tell them all that you told us. They have experience working with people just like you. And I've been there.

    http://www.vesid.nysed.gov/

    They can help you get a job, or learn skills, teach you how to live independently, set you up in your own apartment if necessary, put you in touch with a counselor, anything you need. All you have to do is go there, be honest with them, accept their help. Leave the histrionics and headgames outside before you go in.

    VESID can help you, if you really want to actually do something.

    By Blogger Clay, at 10:46 PM  

  • Matt, yes, the inability to learn a lot of things. Being capable of going on the internet isn't enough to get by with. My condition has caused me numerous inabilities in being able to communicate with others, to be able to do various tasks, to remember things and consistently do them without screwing up, and to learn many things and skills.

    By Blogger lurker, at 11:02 PM  

  • Clay, I've been trying to get access to vocational services like that. I have to get documentation of a diagnosis, but I don't have it yet. My mother is looking for the forms that need to be signed, and I think she's going to try to get a psychiatrist I saw to sign them. I'm still working on that.

    By Blogger lurker, at 11:13 PM  

  • Timelord said:

    "He deleted that post, but I grabbed a cache version and my response is here;

    http://mitchellisafool.blogspot.com/2009/03/deleted-post.html"

    If he deleted that post, it's back up now, though superseded by a post about Jenny McFarty. I haven't read that one yet, cause I had supper awhile ago, and I like to make sure that when I read Jon-boy's blog, it's on an empty stomach. (ahem) That wretch makes me retch! And if it's about Jenny, I'm sure I'd just keep on puking till there was nothing left of my chicken noodle casserole. ;-)

    By Blogger Clay, at 11:22 PM  

  • Lurker said:
    "I'm still working on that."

    Glad to hear it, Billy. I know you need to show them a Dx. Follow through on it, it'll be worth it.

    They helped me, by lending me a PC, and sending a guy to show me how to use one. It wasn't internet-able, but it did get me over my vague phobia about computers, uneasiness with the "new thing".

    See, that's one of My inabilities, learning to do new things. I've never had a cell phone, a mp3 player, an iPod, a wii, any of those newfangled electronic gadgets
    you young whipper-snappers use these days. ;-) Seriously!

    By Blogger Clay, at 11:35 PM  

  • Good advice, Clay! Well done!

    Timelord, when is the John Best forum coming back from maintenance?

    Matt, I'm presently tweaking the forum to satisfy Pro Boards TOS. I'm waiting for the all clear from them.

    Oh and Clay, you missed a post on Mitchell's blog after the sister's book one but before the latest one. I wish I could remember the name of it. Hang on I'll see if Google still has it cached.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 6:26 AM  

  • Found it by googling my name and yours in the one hit. The title was;

    "neurodiversity bullying and human rights"

    Google that title including the talking marks, and take a look. I saved it this time for future reference.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 6:30 AM  

  • Clay and Timelord

    I'm still waiting for my report from the autism center here.

    They're taking so fucking long. Even, Dr. Bird, my current psychologist had a hard time trying to get the report. Dr. Bird is an excellent psychologist too.

    The reason they're taking so long is because they do not want lawsuits so they have to metaphorically cross their t's and dot their i's. For me, the wait is too long but I do understand where Dr. Oasley is coming from. It sucks and I know she does not like it the rules either. My state sucks. Dr. Oasley is exactly like Dr. Bird, personality wise.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 7:46 AM  

  • "See, that's one of My inabilities, learning to do new things. I've never had a cell phone, a mp3 player, an iPod, a wii, any of those newfangled electronic gadgets
    you young whipper-snappers use these days. ;-) Seriously!"



    Clay, If you ever needed help to figure these electronic devices out and If I lived near you I would be happy to help you out. I am excellent at figuring out stuff like that out.

    Timelord, if you needed help on anything at all I would help you too. I owe you a huge debt of gratitude.

    In fact, I've been thinking. We aspies may not be able to succeed alone but maybe we all can succeed if we all work together and help each other to succeed by encouragement and in other ways.

    Lurker, I am sure you have stuff to contribute too. Lurker, in fact I know you do. Lurker, you already have helped me out to some degree. This means lurker, you have knowledge in certain areas I do not.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 8:16 AM  

  • Lurker, are you sure you have considered all options?

    Lurker, may I tell you a bit of truth here? Technically you did choose an option by giving up totally on doing anything at all.

    Lurker, you're constraining success to how many material things and how wealthy you can be. Lurker, you're also constraining success to be how many friends you have and how famous you are. This is wrong too. This is my opinion but it's not the quantity of friends but the quality of friends.

    In my opinion, I think Timelord is a friend of excellent quality. Guess what, he has a ton of information to share and if you look at his website you will obtain a ton of information.

    Timelord, do you have anymore suggestions about the Autism Center and what I can do? Is there anything else I can and should do in the meantime while I wait?

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 12:00 PM  

  • I posted this on Jonathan Mitchell's Blog. ABFH, if you do not mind I will post it here just to show he is purposely expanding the usage of the meaning of the term bullying.

    Mitchell

    You say you're being bulled. Please Define Bullying and tell me how you are applying the meaning of the term "Bullying."

    Mitchell, we both probably agree on the meaning but I know exactly what you are doing.

    You are expanding the usage of the meaning of the word "Bullying."

    Refuting what you say by presenting counter-points to your arguments is not considered to be included in the meaning of the term "bullying".

    Before you say anything against Alyric, Timelord, David Andrews, Clay Adams, I, and others how about get the pragmatic usage of term meanings correct and let's cut out the fucking bullshit.

    Just as you have the right to freedom of speech we have the right to refute what you say even if you will not let us do so on your blog. We can do so on ours as long as we do not violate our TOS's.

    Again, cut the fucking bullshit Mitchell because I know exactly what you're doing and you're propaganda technique has been called out and you're exactly like Joesph Gobbels and not a very good one at that.

    Mitchell, you can take your bullshit and dump it on my property of Dump Water Lake free of charge since you cannot afford my prices.

    By Anonymous Cube Water, at 2:05 PM  

  • Timelord said:

    "The title was;
    "neurodiversity bullying and human rights"

    Google that title including the talking marks, and take a look. I saved it this time for future reference."


    This was all I got:

    Page not found
    Sorry, the page you were looking for in the blog autism's gadfly does not exist.

    I can't believe I'm actually *asking* someone to send me Mitchell's stuff, but would you send me a copy? (You could send it via the Neurodiversity "backchannel".) ;-)

    By Blogger Clay, at 3:02 PM  

  • Clay click the cached part in google.

    By the way, Cube Water = Cube Demon. This is my mistake.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 4:09 PM  

  • What Cube Demon said, Clay. I should have told you to click on the "cached" link. My bad.

    Cube Demon, it looks like Mitchell modded your post out. Isn't that just typical of the Autistic Community's second biggest coward? (The biggest of course being Best)

    By Blogger Timelord, at 6:40 PM  

  • Thanks, Cube and Phil,
    I hadn't noticed that "cached" feature before. (I never said that I had "mastered" the use of the PC.)

    Having read it, I can only say that Mitchell's whining about being bullied falls on deaf ears with me. If he can't take it, he shouldn't dish it out. I had barely heard of him before I ran across something he wrote which was an attempt to trash Michelle Dawson. (my hero! heroine?) Anyway, I have a lot of respect for her and her work, admire her bravery in taking on the Canadian Supreme Court and all the "autism advocates" in Canada, and you would be hard-pressed to find anyone who has done more to advance the cause of autistic rights and standards of ethics for NTs to use regarding us than Michelle.

    So, when I read this trash-talking by him, I was motivated to give him a (metaphorical) black eye. Hence, my post to him last Christmas Day, inquiring about his mother's attitude about autism. He said that she thought it was a "horrible disease needing a cure".

    She always thought that, as soon as she found out Jonnie-boy had it. I say that he learned that from her before he could speak (when he was 5, I think), and learned from her that she thought he was defective. That would certainly serve to give anyone a lifelong deficit in self-esteem, by itself. Let him refute that!

    Someone wrote and told me that he had alerted Jonathan to the fact that he was being talked about here. He asked him if he wanted to "get in on it".

    C'mon Jon, gonna show up? I wanna give you a metaphorical wedgie, or maybe a swirly, we'll see. ;-)

    By Blogger Clay, at 8:41 PM  

  • Timelord and Clay

    I see he modded my post out. I called Mitchel on out for what he was doing.

    Mitchell, if you're reading this than explain to me how Timelord, Alyric, Miss Gonzo, Clay, Joesph, I and others are bulling you by challenging what you say.

    Give us the logic on this Mitchell if you are reading this.

    This leads to a theory I have developed about you. Mitchell, yes you have had cases in which you were bullied. I agree and do not dispute that. Mitchell, what if you in your entire life made statements and people challenged them and challenged what your mother did. What if you took that as bullying when really it was not.

    If this is true about you then you need to understand that challenging someone's statement is not bullying at all. If your mother told you this or anyone else told you this than they're wrong.

    Challenging you is not bullying you at all.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 9:30 PM  

  • Hi guys: I posted the thing, decided it was best to delete it but Google cached it. I don't feel that I should answer on my blog since the post is not there so there is no context. Since nobody is reading looneytune gluyas' little parody blog in spite of his attempt to try to malign me, he has to stoop to posting it here, but I think since I did post it I owe you all an answer in spite of the fact you are all a bunch of slimeballs.

    I believe forging someone's name to the comments section of my blog, asking about my mother and then lying about it on other people's blogs constitutes bullying. I think Michelle Dawson is certainly capable of taking care of herself and I certainly never maligned her character. I feel very sorry for her that someone like Clay idolizes her. I think calling my mother domineering out of the clear blue sky unprovoked constitutes bullying. I think taunting me with "come out and play" out of a clear blue sky constitutes bullying. I don't know what a wedgie or swirlie is but if you are propositioning me clay, i am not gay, sorry, even if i were i would not do you even if you were the last man on earth.

    Gluyas and cubed demon calling me goebels and hitler out of a clear blue sky unprovoked is also bullying. Gluyas calling my mother a witch and saying all those nasty things on his almost unread by anyone parody blog constitutes bullying. I only wrote opinions people did not like I never insulted anyone personally until I was abused and figuratively beaten up on this blog and others. Gluyas threatening me on my own blog and reposting comments that I had delted forcing me to ban him certainly constitutes bullying. Andrews saying i did not listen in my social psych class, cussing me out calling me an assuming piece of shit arsehole certainly constitutes bullying.

    Harry Williams(AKA socrates) making cheap shots about my inability to get a girlfriend certainly constitutes bullying.

    The NDs have always been the bullies and the aggressors in all of these internet wars and all someone has to do is look at all the posts on the internet and they will see that

    It is true, I have made the mistake of responding in kind in the past, I ignored the don't feed the trolls sign. I guess I will have to try not to avoid that in the future. Though sometimes I have stooped to the level of Williams, Adams and Gluyas and the cowardly cubed demon who refuses to sign his name, it was only self defense. It has always been the hate mongers such as gluyas, adams and williams and demon who started it.

    I know Clay's IP address and I see it on my blog for minutes all the time. Strange he spends so much time reading my blog when he says he can't stomach it. Seems like he enjoys reading it immensely or he would not spend so much time there.

    It is the ND's who can dish it out but not take it, not me. Fine guys, I knew what I was getting myself into by starting an anti-ND blog and I expected such, so fine, go ahead, keep throwing shit at me, go on with your ludicrous mitchell's gadfly parody blog gluyas, I don't care. I was not complaining about bullying from the ND's I was only pointing out their hypocrisy in claiming ND is about human rights but then violating the rights of others with whom they don't agree.

    If you guys don't like me you are only helping me out and giving my blog more traffic by bringing up my name and bullying out of the clear blue sky. If clay wants to claim I am intentionally starting stuff to generate traffic to my blog, fine let him.

    Good like with your hate mongering, shit throwing fest guys. and hopefully I have learned my lesson and will not again ignore the don't feed the trolls sign.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 10:30 PM  

  • Cube, I have not, as I have already said, decided not to do anything. Who wouldn't consider success to be based on material things? Who said anything about being famous? What am I supposed to constrain success on?

    By Blogger lurker, at 10:30 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 10:38 PM  

  • Lurker this about the differences between America Think Vs. Britain Think. I showed this to Timelord one time.

    "Well, I do know for a fact that it is a common misconception held in the United States.

    I actually bought a book titled Brit-Think, Ameri-Think that discusses the topic of teeth and the perception of them in both countries. I shall type an excerpt from it (it is quite lengthy):

    First Appearances:

    Ameri-Think:
    "If I've only one life to live," breathes a beauty in a famous American TV commercial, "let me live it as a blonde!" As has been noted, it goes against the Ameri-grain to concede that "we pass this way but once." Just in case, however, true Yanks are determined to make the most of it. Appearance is vital. Suggest that beauty is only skin-deep, or that character counts most, and natural skepticism overwhelms them. It's all very well to have a fabulous personality; but- if you want to reach for the stars (and every American does-you'll also need straight teeth. They're equally pragmatic about nature and its wondrousness. "If nature's blown it, we'll fix it" is the national cri de coeur that's launched a million cosmetic operations. It's clear that the quality of your life- and your enjoyment- are largely dependent on the way you look. There's little doubt that appearance affects popularity and financial success. "Just as God Made Me" is not always good enough. Look what He did with earwigs. (Telleriab2's Disclaimer: I, of course, am content with the way God created me. The point made in the passage was just humourous to me; I will not lie about that)

    ... Brit-Think:
    Nature usually gets it right the first time. Think carefully before pressing the override button. There's no such thing as perfection in this less-than-perfect world, and humans are no exception to the rule. What is success, anyway? How can you measure it, and what matter if you don't achieve it? Does British society respect you less if you're poor? (Yes.) Penalize you if you're stupid? (Of course.) Discriminate against you if you're unattractive? (Right on.)

    To seek perfection is to commit the sin of hubris. Brits are fatalists... "we all die anyway." Why suffer and sacrifice for an uncertain (and inevitably temporary) gain? It is enough just to be. Avoid tampering, or trying too hard, which is unbecoming. Anyway- the class system gives you a natural place in the scheme of things. If you like, it's yours for life.

    Yanks may believe that self-improvement= upward mobility= progress... but Brits hate the idea. For one thing, it suggests change. For another, it encourages a burst of personal initiative... your fate in your own hands, and so on. That idea makes Brits very tired. "Let it Be," sang Paul McCartney.

    That goes for things physical as well. Why spend good money to straighten little Jeremy's peculiar teeth? Pure indulgence, when all mortals are flawed. If you're going to splurge, invest in something sensible- like a new stereo system.

    The passage also goes to talk about the difference in sizes of mouths.

    Brit-Think:
    Brits have some of the most curious dental configurations in the world. Their mouths often appear too small for a normal number of teeth. Anglo-orifices are tiny and discreet, nestling unobtrusively between the nose and chin... (Mick Jagger's mouth is not orificially British).

    Brits keep stiff upper lips (Telleriab2 points out that this is another British stereotype) because they do not wish to call attention to their mouths by moving them. Large, wet, mobile apertures (like Mick's) strike them as obscene. Besides, they are hiding their teeth, since dental problems are woefully neglected. If there's one thing that frightens Brits more than the prospect of change, it's dentists.

    Ameri-Think:
    Ameri-mouths are more generous, and usually open. This accounts for the difference between British and American sandwiches. Brits are forced to nibble thin cucumber ones because their mouths don't open wide enough to accomodate American whoppers. Ameri-jaws will separate at an angle of 180 degrees, no problem. Bring on the pastrami."

    Lurker, in a way I agree more with the Brits attitude about things.

    Lurker, you need to get to where you're supporting yourself ok. The first thing you need to do Lurker is look at that website Clay posted and go to that place. If I was there I would pick you up, drive you there, and we would go together.

    Lurker, eventually once you get to a place(I believe you will, you gave me info I lacked so you do have value Lurker and I believe in you) where you're supporting yourself don't worry and stress about all these material possessions and upward mobility bullshit. It's narcissim and if America keeps going like this America will fall. How about do things like improve your character, your critical and lateral thinking skills. You could read classical stuff like Orwell's 1984 or if you like classical music listen to classical music. I know you have major problems reading. At that place maybe you can get help with that I don't know or maybe they can reccomend you a place.

    I wish my autism center would hurry the fuck up and send me my report.

    The truth, Lurker, is our medical system is a fucking joke.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 11:50 PM  

  • Jon Mitchell said:

    "I believe forging someone's name to the comments section of my blog, asking about my mother and then lying about it on other people's blogs constitutes bullying."


    Aw, I hope it didn't leave any bruises! Yes, I knew you thought you were all buddies with Ivar, and I used his name to get you to print (and answer) the question. That is what naturally proceeds from you being such a delete-happy blogger! Censorship is somehow un-American, to me. You said her views were "similar to mine", which is patently false. Who was in the authoritative position when you were 5, and you learned that you were defective? All your childhood, in a million ways, you learned from her that you had a "disease that needed a cure".


    "I think Michelle Dawson is certainly capable of taking care of herself and I certainly never maligned her character. I feel very sorry for her that someone like Clay idolizes her."

    Yeah, I've seen her slap you down, in her very polite way. I said I admire and respect her, and know of her many accomplishments. She's not the only one who holds the status of "hero" in my book, but I don't want to start listing them, because I might leave someone out unintentionally.


    "I think calling my mother domineering out of the clear blue sky unprovoked constitutes bullying."


    I just get that sense whenever I read you. I don't know what else could result in you being such a weenie.


    "I don't know what a wedgie or swirlie is but if you are propositioning me clay, i am not gay, sorry, even if i were i would not do you even if you were the last man on earth."


    They didn't have them back when we were kids, but FYI, a wedgie is when somebody comes up behind you, reaches in to grab your shorts, and pulls them up exposing as much of them as possible, and probably causing some groin pain and skidmarks. Supposed to be funny.
    A swirly is when they grab you in the school bathroom, dunk your head in the toilet, and flush. That doesn't sound funny at all.
    Naw, I'm not gay either, and I don't proposition anyone these days.


    "I only wrote opinions people did not like I never insulted anyone personally until I was abused and figuratively beaten up on this blog and others."

    Your "opinions" included trash-talking, using people's names, and not just Michelle's. Don't make me go dumpster-diving through your blog to find examples.

    I won't answer for the words or deeds of others, but I will tell you it was a spontaneous thing. Not like we got together on an offlist email and Planned the thing. You helped to fuel it, and got responded to. When I made a list of your comments, I left some out, as I considered them fair, considering what had been said to you. The ones I listed, however, were over the line.


    "I know Clay's IP address and I see it on my blog for minutes all the time. Strange he spends so much time reading my blog when he says he can't stomach it. Seems like he enjoys reading it immensely or he would not spend so much time there."


    Ach! one time I started reading it, then needed to throw up, but didn't make it to the bathroom, and had to clean spaghetti from my bedroom carpet. Another time, Rachel Maddow's show came on, and I went over to my easy chair to watch. I often just take a break from the PC to rest my eyes.


    "It is the ND's who can dish it out but not take it, not me."


    You can express your ideas on your blog, you can say what you're against, but if you bring up names and trash-talk those people, I will have something to say about it, and since you don't allow opposition comments there, I'll have to do it somewhere else.


    "If you guys don't like me you are only helping me out and giving my blog more traffic by bringing up my name and bullying out of the clear blue sky. If clay wants to claim I am intentionally starting stuff to generate traffic to my blog, fine let him."


    Yeah, how does that work, Jon? Do you get any income from having the blog, more if there's more traffic? Honestly, I don't know, just askin'.

    And who pays you for writing it? I know you renovated your blog last year, did your buddy Best hook you up with JB Handley of GR, or some other curebie organization to be a paid shill for them? And as for your claim that Autism Speaks doesn't plan to to eradicate autistics, eventually through prenatal tests leading to abortion -

    "Autism is an enemy and it should be wiped off the earth by curing everyone who has it and preventing it from happening to anyone else.
    People who get in the way of us curing autism...just shoot them."
    John Best Jr.

    Just nabbed that off your blog. And yes, I know that Best doesn't represent (and claims to dislike) Autism Speaks, THAT is the mindset of the curebies you got in bed with!

    Consider yourself swirled. :-)

    By Blogger Clay, at 12:40 AM  

  • Clay

    For the most part I am becoming mostly pro-life and only believe in abortion for certain cases like

    1. if the mother's life is in danger

    2. rape

    3. incest

    4. pedophiliac child molestation

    Even then for these four I do not like it. Someday, I wish artifical technology could be developed so abortion can be a thing of the past. This is something I would support all the way. This is where money should go and not some phoney, baloney cure.

    I used to be pro-choice but I am agreeing more with the pro-life movement everyday that passes. I think abortion is a symptom of our moral decline in our country. I wish there was something we could do to reverse all of this narcissism but I think it maybe be too late. We have a major spiritual problem in this country and abortion is a symptom of this. I think Roe Vs. Wade may have been a bad idea. If anyone wishes to metaphorically bash my head in then I will accept any criticism and I will be fine with it.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 12:56 AM  

  • Aw, I hope it didn't leave any bruises! Yes, I knew you thought you were all buddies with Ivar, and I used his name to get you to print (and answer) the question. That is what naturally proceeds from you being such a delete-happy blogger!

    No bruises Clay, I knew it would be part of the course. You could have used your real name and I would have responded the same as I did to "Ivar" I did not know you or anything about you in December.

    Yeah, how does that work, Jon? Do you get any income from having the blog, more if there's more traffic? Honestly, I don't know, just askin'.

    Nope, not a dime. i was considering putting ads on it or trying to do a google monetizing thengs, but then ads for things like ABA and chelation which I don't like might come up but I am more principled than your buddy Michelle Dawson is (more about that below) so I don't want to accept money from organizations I don't believe in. Also I would not want ND ads appearing, though I know they don't have the capital for such things.

    did your buddy Best hook you up with JB Handley of GR, or some other curebie organization to be a paid shill for them? And as for your claim that Autism Speaks doesn't plan to to eradicate autistics, eventually through prenatal tests leading to abortion -

    Maybe you should ask your pal Dawson about that. She has far more involvement in the curebie organizations that you detest so much since she works in the Mottron research group which actively seeks out funding from autism speaks and gets it. Michelle has also coauthored journal articles with Jocelyn Faubert who receives funding from autism speaks. Dawson according to your logic must be in favor of prenatal abortions. I wonder why you don't call her a quisling and a sellout.

    No I don't censor opposing people just people who are abusive to me as you and Gluyas. No one else that I can think of really, just you two. Believe it or not I have modded out some comments that John Best made that were over the top. I let the comment about shooting people through, even though I think he was wrong to say it, I can understand his contempt and anger when he has a severely handicapped child and has to deal with people with your mentality and Gluyas' mentality every day.

    Have a nice night, Clay.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 12:59 AM  

  • Cube, I'm working on going to that place eventually. I don't know why not to worry about material things, because I like to consider that it is natural to want things. I don't really expect a lot anymore though. I hope I get some stability, but after that I don't expect anything else for myself. I recognize a lot of value in upward mobility and wish it hadn't faded away where I am from. I don't think a lot about improving my character considering how far I've descended and how indignant I've become.

    By Blogger lurker, at 1:15 AM  

  • Mitchell said this:

    "I don't agree with a lot of john best's behavior and tactics. But you have to understand this is a man with a severely autistic son who can hardly speak, smears feces on the wall etc. I don't blame him one bit for the anger and contempt he has towards these people which I share with him, though I would not recommend shooting them. However, since we are at the moral equivalent of war with autism in the USA, it could be argued that a lot of the activities the ND's are doing are treason. We do have federal statutes prohibting treason in the USA, something to think about."

    Mitchell thinks we're committing treason. How in the fuck are we committing treason by disagreeing with you and challenging you? where do you get your twisted logic from?

    Mitchell, you're John Best Jr's Joesph Gobbell's because you're using Gobbell's tactics. You're trying to redefine treason Mitchell. You're terrible at expanding the pragmatics of the meanings of words. I know what you're doing Mitchell so again let's cut the shit.

    Mitchell, what do you think would happen if I gave my first and last name? All Best has to do is look me up and post my fucking address. This is not being a coward. This is my applying the usage of the meaning of the phrase "common sense" correctly.

    Mitchell, as I said, Best still has my challenge to accept. If he did accept it he would get my name if my other immediate family members were protected and put into protective custody while I was doing the challenge with Best. Mitchell, the thing is it's not about me. It's about love for my family members. Mitchell, you will not goad me into revealing my name. Mitchell, if I did not have immediate family members my full name including my middle name would be revealed and I would make eat your own words and show you up as to who is a coward. But, I have to consider the safety of my family members my #1 priority before any type of honor. In fact, this is what you did. You challenged my honor. I know what happens to those who reveal their names. Look at Timelord and look at Kevin Leitch.

    Eventually, I am going to make my own blog and I will make you and John Best Jr. eat it, Mitchell. The first way I will make Best eat it is I will have my challenge up there and I will create a clock to show how many days I challeged Best and he has refused my challenge.

    Mitchell, your buddy Best is very disrepsectful towards women especially towards Alyric when he said he would not even receive a hummer from her. Alyric is right. Your buddy Best is scum. What does that make you by associating with Best Mitchell even if you are correct in what you say?

    If I win the challenge I proposed to Best I still think Best needs to be made to dress as a clown and have and have pies thrown at his face. Personally, I think Alyric should have the first pie throw at this event for Best's rude, ugly, sexist, and dehumanizing, thing he said to and about Alyric.

    I believe Best is more than just scum. I think Best is pure Dog Shit.

    Mitchell, you do not smell that nice being around him even if you're correct in everything you say. Do you know that Best talked about Euthanaisa for Autistic Children? Mitchell, do you realize how fucking evil and sick that is. No Mitchell, he is Adolph Hitler and you are his Joesph Gobbells and I state that as fact.

    Anyone who says shit like that about women and anyone who even entertains the thought of genocide is a sick bastard.

    ABFH and others, I am sorry everyone that I am showing much passion about this but this comes from the deep core of my gut. I am from a Jewish background. My parents taught me everything about the holocaust and the concentration camps more so than even the schools did.

    Never again is what I say and John Best Jr. needs to be stopped as well as you Mitchell aka as John Best's Joesph Gobbells.

    I, not only an Aspie, but as a Jew I am honor bound to be in the ND movement and support it.

    Fuck You John Best Jr. and Fuck You Jonathan Mitchell and Fuck You Alison Tepper Singer, the holocaust will never happen again and until I take my last breath on this Earth I will do everything I can to prevent another holocaust.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 1:39 AM  

  • hiya cubed, nice to see such intelligent conversation from the ND's. You have to stoop to calling me nasty names and comparing me with nazis and insulting me.

    Alyric, is no lady, at least not in the metaphorical sense even if this person, who like you, won't sign their name is a female. She is constantly abusive and nasty to anyone who does not agree with her, she calls people names just as you do. So any shot Best takes at her is justified.

    John Best does not really want to euthanize autistic children. He just wants to say things to get the goats of the ND movement, but you just take him seriously.

    I look forward to reading your blog when you start it. Life can be hard sometimes and I need a good laugh once in a while.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 1:45 AM  

  • Jon Mitchell said:

    Maybe you should ask your pal Dawson about that. She has far more involvement in the curebie organizations that you detest so much since she works in the Mottron research group which actively seeks out funding from autism speaks and gets it.

    1. You're making assumptions about that. I don't think she's ever said she was employed by them. It could be that she does what she does on a volunteer basis. I don't know about that, but I do know that she's lived the past 20 yrs or so in a basement apartment that has rats, and often has huge leaks through the ceiling, damaging clothes, books, anything in the way. She doesn't cook, eats simply, and is no "material girl". She's no sell-out, and that's for sure. When you make that claim, those of us who know, just Have to think badly of you.

    2. If she were here, she'd probably say she is engaged in science, and is not concerned with who pays for the utilities or overhead. Wouldn't affect her results if it were sponsored by the ASPCA or KKK.
    She would consider that irrelevant to her work, and her results.

    I can understand his contempt and anger when he has a severely handicapped child

    Who knows what caused that? Was his house built before 1977? It could be that Sam has lead poisoning instead.

    and has to deal with people with your mentality and Gluyas' mentality every day.

    Not me, I quit knocking on that door years and years ago. There's nobody home! Same goes for Harold, the man is a broken record. Some friends You have.

    By Blogger Clay, at 2:06 AM  

  • Jon,
    Don't go bustin' on Alyric either. She's more intelligent and better educated than either of us, and is just as autistic. She may be passionate about defending her views, and doesn't mind calling a spade a spade, or a scumbag a scumbag. And I know her real name, but don't bother asking me.

    If you go ad hominem on *people*, that's what you'll get back, in spades.

    By Blogger Clay, at 2:29 AM  

  • Oh wah wah wah, Mitchell!

    For your information, wise guy, I do that blog to respond to you. I don't care if anyone else reads it or not. And it's not a parody blog. It's a response blog, because you haven't got the guts to let me post on yours.

    I think Michelle Dawson is certainly capable of taking care of herself and I certainly never maligned her character.

    You bet you do! You malign her every time the issue of Autism Speaks funding comes up - without fail!

    A point. I didn't call you Hitler. That was for Best. You're Goebbels, because you yap up his line about Autism being bad and spread BS (propogranda) about things simply to keep what's left of your self esteem afloat - as self esteem that (as Clay rightly pointed out) has been at near rock bottom since it was wrecked to begin with by your own mother! She bullied you and you don't want to believe it because she's your mummy! I'm tempted to quote Doctor Who here, but you wouldn't get it so I won't.

    And you talk about self defense? Of what? You can't defend cowardice. You reap what you sow, Mitchell. You belt out the hate so you have to expect it back from Clay, David, Harry, me and Cube Demon. And others besides. I dish it out, and yes I can take it because I always have a response. Every time - no matter what. That's what you can't handle with me, Mitchell. I defy your assumed definition of neurodiversity.

    To your second post - you bet you were bruised! The evidence? Modding people like Clay and me out! Very poorly hidden, Mitchell! Oh and there's the swipe at Michelle Dawson again. What a surprise! As for Best's comment, if he displayed that attitude in Australia and was Australian I could nail him to the metaphorical wall! LEGALLY! His true contempt is for himself for being stupid enough to.....yeah well the rules of this blog prevent me from talking about Best and his son, but he tries to hide it and that's why he certainly hates me and is scared of me. You fear me, Mitchell, and you fear Clay as well. Not because we're bullies. That's your convenient excuse. The real reason is because we tell the truth about you and about neurodiversity and (thank you Jack Nicholson) YOU CAN'T HANDLE THE TRUTH!!

    John Best does not really want to euthanize autistic children.

    Yes he does. He said so and I kept a copy of his post to prove it. He needs to be taken seriously because he is a dangerous lunatic who is a threat to everyone on the Spectrum.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 8:13 AM  

  • "hiya cubed, nice to see such intelligent conversation from the ND's. You have to stoop to calling me nasty names and comparing me with nazis and insulting me. "

    Mitchell, you get back what you dish out. This is not bullying. If you do not like being called nasty names then quit calling other folks who disagree with you nasty names. Stop the Ad-Hominem attacks and actually debate.

    "Alyric, is no lady, at least not in the metaphorical sense even if this person, who like you, won't sign their name is a female. She is constantly abusive and nasty to anyone who does not agree with her, she calls people names just as you do. So any shot Best takes at her is justified. "

    I will tell you this I am a male Mitchell. Again, it would be insane of me to put my first, middle, and last name out there. The only two people who know my actual name are Timelord and David Andrews. I know exactly what happens to folks who put their name out.

    Best has shown his true colors and the man will find information to use against me. He will also post my address. This isn't an act of cowardiace like you claim it's a matter of responsibility towards other family members trumps over personal honor and ego.

    I think Alyric understands the same thing. I'm not going to claim to know what goes on in her head because I have an inablity to read minds. Mitchell you don't know what goes in our minds either. You don't know hard or easy it is for any of us.

    "John Best does not really want to euthanize autistic children. He just wants to say things to get the goats of the ND movement, but you just take him seriously. "

    How do you know what Best truly believes and not believes. Can you read his mind? Guess what though. The man incited terrorism.

    "I look forward to reading your blog when you start it. Life can be hard sometimes and I need a good laugh once in a while."

    I will agree with you that life can be hard sometimes. I currently do get a laugh from your blog once in a while myself.

    Mitchell, if Best won my challenge all of this becomes moot and we would all win in the end. Neurodiversity would still remain a valid medical concept. In the end, if Best won the challenge it would be the opposite of a puric victory. It would be a extreme greater gain for all of us even for Best himself. Mitchell, I have already logically pointed this out to both you and Best. I've given Best an easy way to end all of this debate right here, right now and to prove chelation is the cure for autism.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 8:29 AM  

  • Hey, I'm posting the details of this on as many blogs as I can. It's a story about six disabled people, one of whom was autistic, being killed by doctors' neglect. One was denied cancer treatment. Another went without food for 26 days. I know it has little to do with this particular post. However,it's extremely important:
    http://www.mencap.org.uk/page.asp?id=9604

    By Anonymous sanabituranima, at 8:44 AM  

  • "Jon,
    Don't go bustin' on Alyric either. She's more intelligent and better educated than either of us, and is just as autistic. She may be passionate about defending her views, and doesn't mind calling a spade a spade, or a scumbag a scumbag. And I know her real name, but don't bother asking me."

    Clay, I'm in agreement with this. Personally, I think a spade should be called a spade and a scumbag should be called a scumbag.

    Personally, I think Best is dog shit. He is also lily-livered coward like Kevin Leitch says.

    "If you go ad hominem on *people*, that's what you'll get back, in spades."

    Mitchell, it's called Karma which really says in physics "To every action there is an equal and opposite reaction." I do challenge Newton on this in a certain way.

    I say the opposite reaction can be more than original action put in. This is what occured to you Mitchell.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 9:44 AM  

  • Mitchell, part of my blog that will be created sometime in the distant future will be to challenge society's pre-conceived values and assertions or at least dealing with them in absolutes. if they were dealt in the absolute way these values, assertions, and cliches would be inconsistent within themselves and with each other.

    Even we in the ND movement use the values and assertions and we need to put perspective on these values and assertions.

    Mitchell I think it's time for someone to be Society's especially American Society's Gadfly just like Socrates was to Ancient Athens.

    I will take that role as America's Gadfly especially those on www.townhall.com.

    For example, taking responsibility vs. blaming others. Let's say we have a set of things that are possible to taking Responsibility on, R.

    There is the other set Blaming Others, B which contains members of all possibilites or things or persons that are possible for a person to blame.

    The conclusion I have come to is taking either position of taking absolute responsibility for all members in the set as well as blaming all members in the B set is taking both sets as absolutes and both sets then become inconsistent within themselves and with each other.

    For example, let's say I have a house and I have a old tree by the house that if hit by lightening during a storm will land on my house and destroy my house. Let's say it does happen.

    I could blame mother nature and the lighening and this is true. There is also another part to this. The truth is in the responsibility set I should've been more responsible and not be be lazy and I should've cut down the fucking tree or had the tree cut down by professionals but I was not responsible for the actual storm for taking place. I was responsible for making sure I was somewhat prepared for it.

    I have a lesson I learned from being bullied in 4th grade. A bully, who is now on the sex offender's registry, bullied me bad in 4th grade. This is what happened. We were told to form a straight line in the hallway and stand in the second block. I was in temporary trouble for failing to follow the instruction. In this case, the responsibility for failing to follow the instruction did not lie with me.

    I demonstrated the conclusion as to why it was not my fault and my conclusion was accepted as valid.

    Here were my premises.

    I was defending myself from a bully. He was messing with me bad and would not leave me alone. Since, the bully would not leave me alone I did not hear the second part of the instruction which was to stand in the 2nd block. In addition, since I didn't hear the 2nd block instruction I noticed while trying to defend myself from the bully the line was jagged and I couldn't get into a straight line. There was no way I could comply with my 4th grade teacher's orders and in this case I proved in this case it was the bully's fault that I was not standing in the 2nd block. In fact, I even told them in my paper to check his discipline records and check mine and compare them.

    Guess what I was absolved from any blame in this case.

    The moral of this lesson I learned is if I'm going to blame someone or some event then I need to prove that the blame lies soley on that person or event. The same rule applies for anyone who blames me. My 4th grade teacher at the time thought he had a valid point and I disproved his point by proving my point.

    Mitchell, you need to figure this out quickly.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 11:47 AM  

  • Mitchell, if you prove me wrong on anything then I will accept it. In fact, Lurker proved that I was arguing about the wrong thing. The argument still stands but I was arguing the wrong thing so I adjusted accordingly.

    This is what I am trying to do with Best. If Best, proves that he is right by passing my challenge to him then his assertion that mercury causes autism and that chelation will cure my autism and make me into an NT will be correct. I don't say for certain whether he is correct or not in his certain but most likely he is not and by the science and data I have read I say most likely he is not. He says chelation is the way to go, I say prove it, and make me look like a fool on national TV by accepting my challenge and make me eat my own words.

    I can say this though. Even if he is correct I say his behavior is very deplorable and unsavory and so is yours mitchell.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 11:57 AM  

  • I asked this on Best's hating autism site. He may mod me out so I am posting here.

    "Hey Best

    Can you and your cohorts like Rush Limbaugh, Michael Savage, Sean Hannity, or any of the folks from www.townhall.com or any of your members of your revolution movement prove to me that any Inalienable Rights is possible to even exist and a person or a population set can truly have an Inalienable Right?

    If so, please prove away.

    First, it is said that Inalienable Rights are derived through the laws of nature. Within this, tell me exactly what the laws of nature are. The only law I see is in nature is Survival of the fittest. Tell me what the other laws are and how you derive them from nature.

    Second, it was said by our founding fathers our inalienable rights our derived by our creator. Who is our creator? Different cultures throughout human history have believed in many different creators. How do you tell who the correct creator is?

    Most people here would say it's the Judeo-Christian God in the old and new testaments.

    Here is my question for even this. How can any Inalienable-Rights be derived from even the Judeo-Christain God when at anytime they can be taken away by him at his pleasure?

    This means you may have certain rights derived even from the Judeo-Christain God for a certain period of time but how can anyone have any Inalienable Rights at all if the right can be subsquently removed for a special condition or at anytime?

    If there was an inalienable right that is truly derivable then not even God or nature should be able to negate this right. Since, it is claimed that God is omnipotent this means that God no limits to what he can do.

    If this is true then technically there can be no Inalienable Rights at all that any population set or any individual can claim at all from anywhere for all times."

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 1:47 PM  

  • Cube Demon, I usually enjoy reading your comments. But as I have said before, I would prefer comments to be related to the subject matter of my posts.

    Most of your comments in this thread are related to the original post because you were responding to Lurker's criticism. As for your response to Mitchell, I did not read his post, but I had no objection to your reposting the comment here because it seemed to be generally related to my original topic of disability and attitudes toward it.

    Your response to Best, however, clearly has nothing at all to do with my post. Please do not use my blog as an all-purpose dumping ground for comments that got deleted elsewhere.

    If you want to start arguments with Mitchell and Best about comments that they deleted from their blogs, I suggest that you set up a new blog just for that purpose. Blogger's new software is easy to use.

    By Blogger abfh, at 3:48 PM  

  • "Cube Demon, I usually enjoy reading your comments. But as I have said before, I would prefer comments to be related to the subject matter of my posts.

    Most of your comments in this thread are related to the original post because you were responding to Lurker's criticism. As for your response to Mitchell, I did not read his post, but I had no objection to your reposting the comment here because it seemed to be generally related to my original topic of disability and attitudes toward it.

    Your response to Best, however, clearly has nothing at all to do with my post. Please do not use my blog as an all-purpose dumping ground for comments that got deleted elsewhere.

    If you want to start arguments with Mitchell and Best about comments that they deleted from their blogs, I suggest that you set up a new blog just for that purpose. Blogger's new software is easy to use."

    My apologizes ABFH. Sometimes I do get carried away. I am going to eventually take up your suggestion make my own blog using blogger like you suggest. I do have alot to say. Once I do set it up you can come and read it and comment if you wish. This goes for anyone on here.

    ABFH, it's your blog, your property, and your rules. Again, I apologize for getting carried away.

    I will stick to topic from now on and keep this in mind. As Timelord says I do have a tendency to go out to metaphorical left field and base it from the topic itself and sometimes I don't even realize it. This can be a double edged sword as you can see. I will keep myself constrained.

    By Anonymous Cube Demon, at 4:18 PM  

  • Thanks, Cube Demon. Let me know when your new blog is set up, and I'll take a look at it.

    By Blogger abfh, at 5:46 PM  

  • ABFH

    This is the start of my blog. http://cubedemon.blogspot.com/

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 7:04 PM  

  • Looks good so far, Cube Demon.

    By Blogger abfh, at 10:09 PM  

  • Hi Billy,

    You said:
    "Cube, I'm working on going to that place eventually. I don't know why not to worry about material things, because I like to consider that it is natural to want things. I don't really expect a lot anymore though. I hope I get some stability, but after that I don't expect anything else for myself. I recognize a lot of value in upward mobility and wish it hadn't faded away where I am from. I don't think a lot about improving my character considering how far I've descended and how indignant I've become."

    I'm really glad you're going to go to VESID, and hope you follow through on that. It won't be easy, there are bureaucrats there (as everywhere), and they do have their rules to follow. After you provide your Dx, you'll have to go there and listen to a *group lecture*, because they want to save time and answer FAQs all at once, instead of individually. In their own bureaucratic time, they'll assign you a "case worker", and you'll have to make an appointment for that interview. (I hate making appointments myself, for a variety of reasons.) I'd urge you to be factual, truthful, as opposed to being emotional. Emotions don't translate well into bureaucratese, or fit in the spaces provided on their paperwork.

    What Cube was trying to say about material things was that Americans tend to be far too materialistic, always wanting the next new thing, wanting to impress their friends, wanting to fill their stomachs with that beautiful steak and lobster they see on the latest "Red Lobster" commercial. Always wanting things like that often leads to disappointment, 'cause they can't afford all the things they want. It leads to unhappiness. There's an old saying that goes, "You have many wants, but few needs." It's wise to know which is which.

    They (VESID) can help you, in quite a few ways, especially including vocational training. And there are jobs, even in these economic times, for anyone willing to work. There's more ways to get a job than just looking in the classifieds in the paper. Damn! I used to see an old Chinese woman, scouring my previous neighborhood before dawn every morning, looking for cans and bottles to pick up for the 5 cent deposits. She was about 4 and a half feet tall, not more than 80 pounds, probably couldn't speak English, but she was doing what she could to support herself and/or her family. I'm not saying that you should do that, but you could adopt her attitude.

    I think you can do do it Billy. I'm not saying it will be easy, it won't be. But you can, and you will grow from the experience. Good luck to you.

    By Blogger Clay, at 6:19 PM  

  • Actually, Clay, the case worker step isn't so bad when it comes to emotions. It depends on what sort of case worker you get. Some can actually be good for the emotional response.

    But to get to that point - you're right. Keep the emotion out of it.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 7:40 PM  

  • I think I'll check out Cube's blog.

    By Blogger Matt Hogan, at 1:41 AM  

  • If anyone here wants to comment on anything I have said on my blog they can go ahead.

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 11:29 AM  

  • Found out on Joseph's blog what Billy Cresp's agenda is.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews M. Ed. (Distinction), at 7:48 AM  

  • Jonathan said:

    Alyric is no lady, at least not in the metaphorical sense even if this person, who like you, won't sign their name is a female. She is constantly abusive and nasty to anyone who does not agree with her, she calls people names just as you do. So any shot Best takes at her is justified. ~

    I wonder if Jonathan is sorry he said this now? Nah, doubt it.

    By Blogger Clay, at 3:52 PM  

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