Whose Planet Is It Anyway?

Friday, May 08, 2009

Turning Trolls into Stone

… or, failing that, into cash.

Last year, Barack Obama's campaign website attracted a very active and enthusiastic blogging community that encouraged visitors to support the campaign. There was just one problem: Trolls who visited the site to post negative comments on the blogs. On such a busy website, it wasn't practical to identify and delete all posts from trolls, and putting comments in a moderation queue would have interfered too much with the free-flowing discussion.

So the community came up with an innovative solution: Respond to the trolls not by arguing with them, but by making additional donations to the campaign. Whenever a troll showed up and wrote a negative comment, several regular posters would promptly respond by informing the troll that they had just made an extra donation in his/her honor. This had a salutary effect in convincing the trolls to take their disruptive attacks elsewhere.

I've been inspired to start a similar effort in the autistic community as a result of some particularly egregious rabble-rousing attempts by the usual cast of suspects. After they learned that Ari Ne'eman of ASAN will be featured in an upcoming Newsweek piece, Jake Crosby at Age of Autism and John Best at Hating Autism, along with a few other ignoramuses of the blogiverse, went into furious tirades urging their readers (what few they have) to write to Newsweek and complain. John Best, who somehow hasn't yet been locked up despite his long history of inciting terrorism, also made a death threat against Ari just for kicks.

Instead of just getting mad about it, I think it's high time for us to get even. So I'm encouraging everyone who supports neurodiversity and ASAN's advocacy efforts to take part in a new anti-troll initiative: Whenever you see ignorant drivel from the haters, make a donation to ASAN to help educate the public, and post about it on blogs and forums to let others know that we're fighting back against the trolls. I've just mailed a contribution of $ 50 to ASAN to kick off this campaign (that's $ 25 for each of you, Jake and John) and I also created an anti-troll fundraising page on change.org for online donations, as well as a pledge to support this effort. ASAN's mailing address is 1025 Vermont Avenue, NW, Suite 300, Washington, DC 20005, for those who prefer to donate by check.

In addition, if you wish to contact Newsweek to thank them for writing favorably about the neurodiversity movement,
letters@newsweek.com is the address for letters to the editor for the US print edition and webeditors@newsweek.com is the address for the online magazine.

Edit, May 16: The Newsweek article has been published online.

Edit, July 28: The mailing address for ASAN as shown above has been updated.

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275 Comments:

  • Make a donation? WHY? There are many of us who have been the target of JB Jnr's death threats for years, and have coped, albeit in a personal manner.

    Camille got it in the throat. Kev Leitch's lovely daughter was threatened, so why should anyone 'donate' to a guy who maybe gets paid. Does he?

    If Ari does all this for free, and out of the goodness of his heart, and his pocket, I'm sorry, and he should get an emergency fund for times like this.
    But that's not my understanding.

    Correct me if I'm wrong.

    By Blogger Barbara, at 5:23 PM  

  • No, he doesn't get paid. All of the members of ASAN's board serve pro bono, and all donations are used to fund ASAN's advocacy work. None of the money goes to Ari personally.

    By Blogger abfh, at 5:34 PM  

  • Sounds like an interesting idea. If I had the means to do this sort of thing I would be all over it. But I will link to this post on my blog, hopefully that will attract attention to the idea :)

    By Blogger Fleecy, at 5:44 PM  

  • So you're saying Ari doesn't have to pay out of his own pocket for what he does?

    Is that the deal?

    He gets donations?

    Cool!

    By Blogger Barbara, at 6:10 PM  

  • I do not get donations. ASAN receives a small amount (our donation history is available on our change.org page) of donations which we use to fund local activities. As an organization of volunteer activists across the country, we do not want to limit the opportunity to make a difference to those who have disposable income, particularly given the number of Autistic adults who continue to face poverty, unemployment and lack of support. We don't have much to accomplish that with, but we do our best to ensure that everyone gets an opportunity to participate in advocacy and activism.

    By Blogger Ari Ne'eman, at 6:24 PM  

  • Thanks for that clarification, Ari.

    It's good that you do this work for absolutely no remuneration (that's what you're saying, isn't it?)

    Good for you!

    Brilliant!

    By Blogger Barbara, at 6:37 PM  

  • Barbara, just for your information, the BS about Ari getting money out of this originated from Best. He's made that allegation not just on his own blog, but also on the Autism Speaks Social Network - an act that got him banned after I reported it.

    Nice idea, ABFH. I couldn't do it though unfortunately, but that doesn't stop anyone else from doing it. I've already emailed Newsweek complimenting them on the story - and at the same time warning them about Best, and two others who I know indicated that they would also be writing (Mitchell and Billy Cresp/Lurker).

    By Blogger Timelord, at 7:31 PM  

  • That's a good idea, if we had lots of money, like JB Handley or something.

    By Blogger Joseph, at 7:53 PM  

  • ABFH

    You are a brilliant woman. Unfortunately, I cannot do it right now because I'm dealing with personal issues. I've have a few of them on my blog.

    I put my math proof as well on it if you or anyone else wants to take a look.

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 8:06 PM  

  • I'm totally in the same boat as Fleecy. I'd gladly contribute if I actually had the resources to do so... is there anything non-monetary that I could contribute as an alternative?

    By Blogger codeman38, at 8:25 PM  

  • Okay, I just made a $25 donation in the name of Billy Cresp (Lurker the jerker) for the stupid comment s/he made on Autist's Corner. They even let me send him a personal message, so I know he'll get the point.

    They make it really easy, you can just put it on your card.

    By Blogger Clay, at 8:35 PM  

  • Hey ABFH,
    Thanks for making the donation in my name. Now I can use that as a tax deduction to offset some of the money I made on Mine That Bird. Please keep me updated so I can track my deductions.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 8:44 PM  

  • Trollturd said:

    Now I can use that as a tax deduction to offset some of the money I made on Mine That Bird. ~

    Sorry John, it doesn't work like that. YOU don't get the tax receipt, the donor does, even though the donation is made in your name. Nice try, though.

    Anytime you make a donation via Change.org you see this:

    "It's really easy - you can donate by credit card and receive an immediate tax receipt for your donation."

    You would have known that, John, if you hadn't gotten kicked off change.org so soon. Hahahaha!


    PS. I sent invites to about 50 friends, and got a couple responses already. Seriously, if you can afford 10 bucks, ASAN is a really good cause.

    By Blogger Clay, at 9:23 PM  

  • John, I didn't literally make the donation in your name. It's just in your honor. No deduction for you, buddy.

    But go ahead and keep on trolling... maybe someone else here will make a donation for you.

    :)

    By Blogger abfh, at 9:46 PM  

  • Yes, Barbara, that is what I am saying.

    Cody, the work you do for ASAN in respect to video accessibility is certainly worth a considerable "in-kind" donation. We really appreciate that. In addition, blogging on one of our action alerts - such as our current efforts around the Community Choice Act or are soon to be launched action alert on school abuse issues - is also an excellent form of volunteering for ASAN that serves as a great response to the unfounded charges against us and me. Donations are appreciated and help what we do, but your advocacy is what really makes our work run.

    Nothing About Us, Without Us!

    By Blogger Ari Ne'eman, at 9:54 PM  

  • I might add, by the way, that posting about this on your blog is a great way of helping the cause, even if you cannot afford to donate yourself.

    By Blogger Ari Ne'eman, at 9:59 PM  

  • By the way, John, there may have been some I didn't know about, but the only other person besides you that I know of that was ever booted from change.org was this "former Nigerian cabinet member" who claimed to be in possession of $8 million, but had this little problem...

    I reported his ass too. Did you last more than that one maniacal day of trolling?

    By Blogger Clay, at 10:08 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 10:16 PM  

  • brilliant. $25 donation sent in.

    By Anonymous cripchick, at 10:44 PM  

  • John wrote:

    "Clay, I was kicked out a few times. That just shows how much Chew and Ne'eman are afraid to face my words. I don't think Ari has the nerve to say anything to me here either, even when he's on friendly turf."

    (other crap deleted)

    John, just to be clear, you know my rules for this blog and I'll still delete your ass if you break them.

    By Blogger abfh, at 10:45 PM  

  • Donation made.

    By Blogger Dave Seidel, at 11:43 PM  

  • We all know the real reason why Best has been booted from Change.org is because he's a complete and utter lunatic with nothing to contribute to the Autistic community. He's even got Congress looking at his blog! No information if that's for a laugh or in order to finally remove the waste of webspace from the Net.

    I figured you'd donate first chance you got, Dave!

    (Sorry if that's feeding the troll, ABFH, but it just made me feel better posting it here - Best knows where my blog is as long as he can keep his language down over there. Only children persist in the way he tried to)

    By Blogger Timelord, at 5:59 AM  

  • Hey John Best, I'll let my old girlfriend, who supervises an office full of auditors at the IRS office, know about your creative deduction strategy. Did you know you can write off psychotropic drugs? One more reason to get some help.

    By Anonymous Jon Bestest, at 8:16 AM  

  • ABFH,
    Is it against your policy for me to ask Ari to back up his words and engage me in a discussion?

    By Blogger Foresam, at 9:23 AM  

  • Hey.
    First of all, abfh, this is an excellent idea. Unofrtunately, I can't donate because there isn't a way to donate in Pounds (or any other non-US currency.)
    John Bestest - I doubt Foresam is ill. Bigotry is not an illness, it's a choice. Being irrational ecause you're too arrogant to listen to facts is something people do on purpose. People who get psychiatric diagnoses aren't any more likely than anyone else to be dangerous threatening trolls. I'm sure you didn't mean anything prejudiced, but there's a lot of prejudice about "crazy" folks (similar to prejudice about autistic folks).

    By Anonymous sanabituranima, at 9:39 AM  

  • Sanabituranima: Those who live outside the United States can donate by mail. I've included ASAN's mailing address in my post.

    And thanks for pointing out that bigotry is not an illness. I wrote a post called Bigot Syndrome a few years ago, speculating on what might happen if it were to be seen as one...

    By Blogger abfh, at 10:08 AM  

  • I'd be interested in the publication details of the interview. Has it been published yet?

    By Blogger Lili Marlene, at 10:26 AM  

  • No, the article has not yet been published. That's why I think the trolls are being even more ridiculous than usual in complaining about something they haven't read.

    By Blogger abfh, at 10:31 AM  

  • I am not a troll. I just feel that in all fairness the other side of the story should be told. Nothing wrong with that. Yes, I will complain about something that has not yet been published. A proactive fight against ND is necessary if we are ever to cure autism and prevent this tragedy from happening to others.

    Someone who is too cowardly to even sign their own name has to stoop to calling me a troll because she can't defend her own indefensible position. So sad, ABFH that you have to stoop to name calling instead of trying to refute any of my arguments.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 12:06 PM  

  • Mitchell

    ABFH came to the same conclusion I have. It's not physically safe not only for us but for our family members as well to post our name. What do you think the fuckwad John would do? I wouldn't put it past you to do it as well mitchell.

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 1:51 PM  

  • ABFH, I don't think John Best Jr. is the type of troll that can be ignored.

    I do believe the man needs to be locked up and is a major threat to others.

    David thinks he may have alot of the traits in the Cluster B personality disorders. He can't tell just by being on the internet. Personally, I think Best needs to be locked up for others safety.

    There is plenty of proof on his blog. Timelord has proof as well. I'm sure the FBI and congress is watching the guy very well.

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 3:05 PM  

  • Do you know why Trolls are so persistent and annoying?

    It is because outside of this small and somewhat unreal simulated world they do not have any power, this is where they can vent their petty grievances with the world, much in the same manner as a drunk will come back and throw stones through the windows of a bar he has been ejected from.

    Serious debate may well occur in the blogoshpere, but so much of it is of the level of two drunks in the bar trading arguments over who can best set the world to rights.

    The internet is a great leveller, and brings serious and hard working people of the calibre of Ari Neeman, Kathleen Seidell in the US and Mike Stanton and Larry Arnold in the UK. (not to mention many others) into contact with all that bar room pettyness.

    There is no serious campaign against 'Neurodiversity'" because the 'Neurodiversity' which these Trolls so avidly rail against is something they have created as a 'Folk Demon' to give the something to volley at.

    In the wider world of international autistic community politicking even Autism Speaks and the new fraction know who they have to be polite to. That is all part and parcel of the interchange of power and organisational politics - they need to trade to survive - and they are changing subtly, which is what so frightens the fanatics who get left behind since even the curebies do not have time for the John Best's and the Lurkers of this world.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:06 PM  

  • Meh, who's afraid of Mitchell. If he ever met any of us in real life, you know he would run crying for his mommy.

    Making out a check to ASAN now, in recognition of all the laughs you give us, Jonathan.

    Tracy Beckham

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 3:06 PM  

  • I'd donate if i had any $ :-(

    By Anonymous Alan, at 3:35 PM  

  • Jonathan said...

    I am not a troll. ~

    Troll, traitor, annoying pest, what's the difference?

    I see on your blog that you're up for a hearing on your SSDI claim.
    If you win, you'd probably get about 20 grand in back pay (less 1/3 for your lawyer). I actually hope they give it to you, if that would get you to stop being a paid shill for GR.

    Sure, you're going to deny that, but do tell us how you've been paying your bills the past 2 years since you got fired.

    By Blogger Clay, at 3:54 PM  

  • Anonymous said...

    Making out a check to ASAN now, in recognition of all the laughs you give us, Jonathan. ~

    Now THAT'S the spirit !!!
    He really is a hoot !

    By Blogger Clay, at 4:00 PM  

  • A proactive fight against ND is necessary if we are ever to cure autism and prevent this tragedy from happening to others.@Jon: If a cure for autism is possible it will be produced regardless of the existence of ND, or your efforts to oppose ND.

    Really, the idea that human rights should apply to autistics is not going to stop medical research. It seems preposterous to think it will.

    By Blogger Joseph, at 4:10 PM  

  • It's typical that someone feels the need for anonymity while they defend Ne'eman and Seidel. Both of these people would make good Ku Klux Klan members for spreading propaganda that prevents autistic people from overcoming their challenges. What would Martin Luther King say about the likes of Neurodiversity's leaders for encouraging all autistics to remain in a disabled state when they should be improving their conditions?

    If Ne'eman had been working on civil rights, his rhetoric would be the same as encouraging all African-Americans to live in slums and not bother going to school.

    How many people does Neurodiversity think they're fooling with this nonsense?

    By Blogger Foresam, at 4:19 PM  

  • "What would Martin Luther King say about the likes of Neurodiversity's leaders for encouraging all autistics to remain in a disabled state when they should be improving their conditions?"

    Foresam, you're so hilariously irrational you woke me from the grave.
    People can only get the power to improve their conditions when they have dismantled systems that treat them as sub-human.
    Even if I agreed with you, love is a better way to fght than death threats.

    By Anonymous Zombie MLK, at 5:31 PM  

  • Sending a check via snail mail.

    This'll probably be a one-time deal for me, since I, like Fleecy and Codeman (and probably a lot of others) don't have a lot of money to spare.

    I love the idea, though.

    :)

    By Blogger Lindsay, at 5:33 PM  

  • Clay:

    "I just made a $25 donation in the name of Billy Cresp (Lurker the jerker) for the stupid comment s/he made on Autist's Corner."

    Ha ha! At least that was good for something.

    By Blogger Lindsay, at 5:35 PM  

  • Joseph: Ari Nee'man and ASAN have called for a moratorium on genetic research. They have also infiltrated the IACC which grew out of the combating autism act and whose purpose is supposed to find ways to prevent and cure autism, not to listen to an ND agenda. ND has also infiltrated the public membership of the IACC by appointing neurodiversitite stephen shore to its public member boards, a person opposing a cure when the CAA was passed specifically to prevent and cure autism.

    The Mottron group has infiltrated autism speaks and taken money from persons who walked and donated falsely believing the money they were raising would actually go to researchers trying to cure and prevent autism. So you are wrong, NDs are impeding scientific progress, so yes I will take a proactive response.

    Clay: Though I am neither troll nor traitor, you are correct in that I am a pest. I am going to be a pest as long as people like yourself are trying to ensure that defenseless children will become crippled and sick. So yeah, I am going to continue my activism and try to get others to do so and I hope you guys keep your word and keep donating the money in proportion to the activism until you've spent your last dollars and you all go broke and end up being homeless and having to wear barrells.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 5:39 PM  

  • Jon Pest said...

    Clay: Though I am neither troll nor traitor, you are correct in that I am a pest. ~

    You're a troll because (1)you make annoying posts on other's blogs intended to derail conversation, (2)doing so provides "click-bait", you hope that people will click on your name and so get traffic to your blog, and (3)if YOU don't look like a troll, I don't know who does!

    You're certainly a traitor (1)IF you are paid by a curebie group for doing so, (and you haven't actually denied that anywhere, anytime), and (2)you work against the best interests of the autistic community, who are working on social progress. (That is an attainable goal, while yours is not. There's no cure for stupid.)

    I am going to be a pest as long as people like yourself are trying to ensure that defenseless children will become crippled and sick. ~

    Again, you are neither crippled, sick, nor diseased. There are some conditions that are sometimes co-morbid with autism, and these can and should be addressed by Doctors. Some Doctors, because of their ignorance about autism, ignore these conditions, considering them "part of autism".

    You are wrong (or lying through your teeth) when you deny that the goal of Autism Speaks is the "prevention and eradication of autism", and fail to see that selective abortion would be the only way to do that. There's never going to be any "pre-natal brain surgery" as your buddy Billy hopes for, and all your wishing won't make it happen.

    So yeah, I am going to continue my activism and try to get others to do so ~

    Uh-huh, in league with your buddies, Harold, who thinks training his son like a dog is a good thing, or JB, who's planning to put his son in an institution, knowing he'll probably be raped and abused there, or Billy, who really doesn't have a grasp on reality. Go for it.

    and I hope you guys keep your word and keep donating the money in proportion to the trollism until you've spent your last dollars and you all go broke and end up being homeless and having to wear barrells. ~

    You really wasted your education, Jon, seeing as you can't spell "barrels". Kinda ironic too, a barrel would fit you nicely.

    By Blogger Clay, at 7:04 PM  

  • @Jon: Nonsense. First of all, I'm not familiar with ASAN's call for a moratorium, but in any case it doesn't mean that "neurodiversity" has called for a moratorium on genetic research. You're confusing things. If I have an opinion, it doesn't mean that "neurodiversity" has that opinion.

    Now, the fact that researchers like Dr. Mottron are getting funding is a good thing. I don't see how that impedes scientific advance. Quite the contrary. To have a good understanding of a condition, you need to do other types of research, like outcome studies, and studies on the cognitive differences between autistics and non-autistics. The fact that you don't like the results is irrelevant. Dr. Mottron's work could, in the long run, have much more practical real world applications than any medical research.

    By Blogger Joseph, at 7:31 PM  

  • Nobody on your side should be calling anyone ignoramuses, considering your side's dependence on ignoramuses to advance their agenda. I'm disgusted how individuals are labeled as trolls for having differing viewpoints, as if they're below consideration.

    I'm sickened from your shameless one-sidedness. The ASAN has almost nothing but misinformation to offer the public. That pompous liar Ari Ne'eman ought to be repudiated, as he mentions problems facing autistics, that he doesn't really care about, while he supports those problems.

    "It is because outside of this small and somewhat unreal simulated world they do not have any power" Anon, then you ought to fear the day when my side gets in power.

    Clay, make as many donations in my name as you want. Someday, financial support alone won't be enough to bolster the power and authority that your side gets. The size of your side of the issue doesn't intimidate me. The unfortunate individuals that your side wants to trample on is very numerous and can be mightier than you and won't put up with your crap forever.

    Where did you get your medical credentials to claim that any problem that comes with autism is a co-morbidity and that a prenatal cure is impossible? I'm sick of you laughing about the plight of REAL disabled people. You and your ilk wouldn't know the first thing about social progress.

    By Blogger lurker, at 8:03 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by a blog administrator.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 8:53 PM  

  • "people should feel free to turn in the real names of Neuronitwits"

    We should feel free to use our real names, although for many of the major proponents their real names are widely known - except to people like Harold Doherty, lurker/cresp, and the likes of Crosby, who like to make claims about these people that are contrary to the real world efforts and work of these people.

    Unfortunetly people like you exist, so using real names is always a risky behaviour.

    "and I'll be happy to blog about all of them by name so they can use it to enhance their professional reputations."

    The idea that anything you do or say can have any impact on thier porfessional careers is absolutely laughable. You don't have much of a real impact outside of the very small circle of blogs that you aren't banned from.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:16 PM  

  • Anon.,
    Spoken like a true coward. Can't back up your words with your name, pathetic.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 9:27 PM  

  • JB - In my professional life, I'm obligated to back up everything I say with why I said it, when I said it, and even how long I spent saying it.

    I am under no obligation to reveal my real name to the likes of you, especially not as you could smear my name or cause me trouble by reporting me to my professional body or my employer. Even though any claim you make against me would be laughed out of the tribunal/hearing, I would still be obligated to take (unpaid) time out to prepare a defence against your claims, even if the claim never gets to an actual hearing.

    A 'coward' is only a coward if they are scared of doing the thing they have a responsibility to do.

    There is no benefit to be offered by you knowing my real name, as you are unable to provide me with any legitimate opportunities through either knowledge (little) or status (none).

    There is a very real, already demonstrated risk of threats, attempts at career assassination, insults and time-wasting posts that answer nothing - just like that last post of yours.

    Aside from the fact that blogging culture or etiquette does not demand or require use of real names, and lack of use of real names does not nullify any arguement or data, you are simply not worth the risk. There is no cowardice involved in recognising your arguements do not hold the worth that you attribute to them.

    Translation - I'm under no obligation to reveal my real name, it's irrelevant anyway as arguements stand or fall on thier evidence and logic, and I do not believe you can be trusted to not misuse your knowledge of my real name to cause my trouble than you're worth.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:02 PM  

  • Sorry last line should read "Cause me more trouble than you're worth"

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 10:07 PM  

  • Coward,
    Thanks for admitting that you're afraid of being reported to someone. People like me who tell the truth about autism fear nothing.
    That means you lose. You admitted you're a liar.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 10:20 PM  

  • Forearm Git, you've got everything to lose. You've already lost it. Your sanity. You are the classical LOSER! Get some nuts.....
    Ari debate you? He doesn't debate loonies. It gives those loonies a reason to exist. He's doing the right thing treating you like you don't exist......

    By Anonymous We know Forearm's dumb, at 11:45 PM  

  • One thing I wonder about concerning Clay Adam's comment that I am being paid by some sort of curebie group if it is he in fact and the other two-thirds of the three stoodges of neurodiversity, Phil Gluyas and cubed demon are the ones who are actually being paid by GR, AoA or autism speaks or some other curebie organization to pretend to be neurodiversites to make the movement look bad.

    I find it incredibly hard to believe that there could actually be three people who are and act so stupid in real life.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 12:37 AM  

  • Still no denial...

    Simple question, Jon, who pays your rent? It's been 2 years since you got sacked, and you claim you haven't lived with your mom for the last 25, so how are you getting by? Are you typing on a laptop, while sitting in a dumpster? No? Then who pays your rent, buys your groceries, pays your utilities, and keeps you in bon-bons? Gotta be your mom, your sister, or JB Handley (or some other curebie group). Answer the question!

    By Blogger Clay, at 1:14 AM  

  • I appreciate the show of support for my work and for ASAN by members of the Autistic and cross-disability community, and I'm heartened to see it only growing. At the same time, I want to express my sincere hope that we can rise above the tendency of our opponents to use ad hominem attacks, focusing on us as individuals instead of trying to respond to our arguments in a meaningful fashion.

    It is clear that the enemies of our movement use straw man arguments and personal attacks to try and skew and distort what neurodiversity and Autistic self-advocacy truly are. I truly believe that the best response to personal attacks is to avoid engaging in them ourselves, but instead to speak firmly and with dignity about the necessity and the value of our movement's work. We are making a difference in the world. We are succeeding in impacting the lives of Autistic people of all ages in a positive way. We can and will continue to do so. Let's focus our efforts on that, and not returning personal attacks with more of the same. Our arguments and our work is strong enough to stand on its own merits. It only makes our case stronger to contrast the toxic vitriol put out by those whose actions are motivated solely by hatred and resentment with the calm, firm reason of our advocates, coupled with their heartfelt and sincere determination to make a difference for the better.

    One of the things listening to my friend Yoshiko Dart and reading about the groundbreaking work her late husband did in giving us the ADA has taught me is that, at its core, our movement is rooted in love, for our people, for our community and for the better future that can be available to all if we work for it. That is the message I want to send to the public. That is the heart of the work that I and my friends are giving our life's work towards.

    By Blogger Ari Ne'eman, at 1:30 AM  

  • Ari Ne'eman, I'd like it if you would just focus on issues like the Community Choice Act and services availability etc., and stay out of the issue of cure if you think about cure the way you do. Your ememies have done a lot of things besides personal attacks, which were provoked by the vile, crazy, insensitive, and reactionary rhetoric spewed by your side. They have addressed the conditions so many on the spectrum face and have consequently shown why their favored action is necessary.

    You have no business accusing anyone of straw men arguments when it is your side that uses them constantly. It's undeniable that the ASAN recommended that autism research into cure and causes be basically eliminated, as it was implied those things weren't wanted or needed by the autistic community. Don't evade acknowledging your true positions. I consider it especially questionable for someone with your leadership to indulge in such ambiguity about opinions.

    Your positions aren't better just because you are so calm and gentle. I think the hatred and resentment is duly justified out of the terrible deprivation of choice, dignity, pleasure, and status caused by the mental impairments that many with autism have to deal with. I resent how you dismiss the other side with your seeming disgust at rabble rousers.

    Who brought you the authority to speak on behalf of all autistics? What subset of autistics permitted you and the other advocate leaders to try to prevent cure? Why should you get to make that choice for other autistics who actually face severe impairment? I don't like how you want to tell other autistics what to do and what should be done, as you deprive them of the opportunity for so many choices, which are inevitably made unavailable to them by their mental disability, considering that disability won't go away without cure.

    By Blogger lurker, at 2:56 AM  

  • For Ari Nee'man, a young man who has said that autism speaks is morally complicit with the murder of autistic children to complain about personal attacks is the height of hypocrisy.

    What you said, Ari, was nothing short of nasty, inflammatory and a personal attack.

    The people of autism speaks, although not perfect are only trying to help their severely disabled children who barring a miracle will never be able to graduate from the university of maryland, do internships have a chance of going to law school and running for political office, etc.

    I believe you should practice what you preach, Ari. There is an old saying about persons who live in glass houses not throwing stones.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 7:19 AM  

  • agree Ari. I shall confine my 'attacks' on you to genuine differences on points of principle and tactics for our respective organisations. Our community is big enough for debate, and also big enough to laugh off the irrelevancies and slanders of those who have made no impact on the debate over autism whatever.

    It is the big players such as Autism Speaks we have more to fear from and it seems that the "lunatic fringe" are as busy slandering them as they are our movement.

    Jonathon, go on write a formal letter to NAS board of Trustees telling them what you think of me. I dare you.

    The NAS existed for more than thirty solid years before I joined them, I think it is fair to say they are not in the hands of a "neurodiversity/illuminati" plot to prevent you from an appointment with Unicorn therapy, the only kind which will cure you.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 7:56 AM  

  • "Coward,
    Thanks for admitting that you're afraid of being reported to someone."

    Look idiot, I've already explained that it is the risk of irrational vindictive behaviour from people like you that makes having true and open dialogue too risky.

    It is the nuisance factor of your behaviour that makes it too bothersome to use real names, not any real concern over official reprimands for holding a view that is well within (and supported by) accepted national and international Codes and Standards of Ethics and Practice.

    "People like me who tell the truth about autism fear nothing."

    Except it seems, from putting forth what your actual arguements are. Mealy mouth insults and smears do fuck all for your side I'm afraid. It's sad that it's all you have left.

    "That means you lose."

    Sorry, but you don't get to decide the rules.

    "You admitted you're a liar"

    Did I fuck. There is nothing in any of my statements that could lead a rational person to think I have admitted this, or am even trying to cover this up.

    You cannot just make shit up and expect to be believed.

    You behaved exactly how you were predicted to behave. Despite taking time out to explain to you what is going on, all I got back in return were accusations, insults, illogic and false claims about what I'd said. I'm glad people like you oppose Neuordiversity, it allows us to look better in the reflective glow of your radioactive shite that you spew.

    You are done with. You have already been banned from numerous blogs and organisations, including those that agree with you. You may want to take some time out to think about whether it really is everyone else that's at fault, or whether it's actually you.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:11 AM  

  • Accusations that the ND movement 'Don't care' about the more severely disabled are always a concern.

    There are concerns over whether the anti-ND movement even have a reasonable definition of 'severely disabled' to begin with. Having seen and treated people with numerous conditions that have left them unable to do anything other than sit in a chair or bed 24/7 (in some cases not even being responsive to sensation or handling) the idea that some of the children/adults presented are 'severe' seems a tad unrealisitic and nieve.

    I'm not saying it's illegitimate and wrong, just that many of the 'severely autistic' people I see presented by the anti-ND side show more function in more domains than many of the 'severely autistic' people I've actually worked with.

    Anyway, I digress. When such accusations are made, it immediately makes me think of just how many of us on the 'ND-side' are active members on the local and national level advocating for therapies, treatments, benefits, schemes, adjustments, accomodations and the like. This is before you begin to count those that are employed/volunteer to provide autism services (like myself, Larry, Millar, Stanton etc) and those that advocate (successfully in the case of Turner) for nationwide changes that benefit many people with neuro/cognitive conditions not just people with autism (like Murray).

    Thus , when people claim 'ND's dont care', it immediately makes me suspect that they don't actually have a working knowledge of who constitutes the ND movement, or what they do for a living/pastime. In the age of Google (and massive hints) , this is unforgivable.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 8:38 AM  

  • Larry I don't care about the NAS, as I am not a british citizen, have never worked or paid taxes there. If some of them want to pursue an ND agenda and have bad enough judgment to do so that is their problem i reckon.

    I probably don't need to write a letter to them. From what I heard a lot of them congratulated Matthew Belmonte when you insulted him and his brother and he called you out. They were happy he put you in your place when you behaved like a spoiled child at IMFAR and disrupted Geri Dawson's speech because you have such a pathologic need to be the center of attention.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 8:41 AM  

  • "I find it incredibly hard to believe that there could actually be three people who are and act so stupid in real life."

    Mitchell, if I'm stupid than answer my questions on my blog and educate me.

    Mitchell, can you please tell us how exactly you're supporting yourself in this "retirement?"

    You never did answer my question on this? Let's say you're correct and a cure is the way to go? What do you do with those with ASDs in the meantime no matter what their functioning level? Do you educate them at all? Do you automatically get them on SSI? What is your proposal on those with an ASD from now on?

    You state problems but offer no solutions except for a cure which is a long time down the road. Do you have any solutions? If not, all you're doing is stating problems without stating solutions.

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 9:14 AM  

  • And mitchell says I'm stupid. WTF!

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 9:15 AM  

  • Jon, if you're going to claim or imply that ND's "Don't care" about the more severely disabled, then you don't get to dismiss contrary evidence (that Larry works at the highest levels for a national charity that does just that) just because you "don't care" and "don't pay taxes".

    Rather surprisingly, this isn't about you, so what you actually 'care' about is largely irrelevant. Larry does do work for people that look after and promote the health and wellbeing of people with severe autism. That is the only relevant thing we need from this discussion.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 9:18 AM  

  • Ari Ne'eman,
    Pointing out that you do not have autism is not an ad hominem attack. We will stop you from misrepresenting people who suffer horribly from autism.

    People with Asperger's who are not trying to harm those with autism would never refer to themselves as autistic. That would be like Tiger Woods claiming he had a handicap of 25.

    Nobody believes you, Ari. Refer to yourself as having Asperger's and there's no problem. Simple. End of adversity. Anyone who wasn't trying to use propaganda would agree to that.

    Prove us wrong. Prove you're not engaging in propaganda to harm our kids. Just stop calling yourself autistic. Easy, huh?

    By Blogger Foresam, at 9:37 AM  

  • Jonathon, you never fail to take this down to the personal level, and indeed continue to repeat instance of an event you did not attend.

    Matthew Belmonte's scatological responce was actually the disruption.

    The Chair was not taking questions from Geri Dawson, therefore I intervened because I thought that she should be taking questions, particularly as I had one which dealt with the way in which ALL autistic people are written up and described in scientific papers.

    That is actually a legitimate academic point, we have ethics committees and such and guidelines and I think that all too often, the big names get away with a little more than ethics committees would allow for those who do command the research money to the degree that the names do. In other words the names out there flout academic privelege and need to be challenged on occasion.

    You call yourself autism's gadfly, but you fail to risk anything personally to prevent the disrespect to which disempowered people are subjected in some sectors of the scientific community.

    If Matthew Belmonte had not been so blinded by his prejudiced assumptions of what I was standing up for he would realise that his brother is being insulted by the science too. If he won't speak up for that I will.

    It is not about Matthew Belmonte and me, or you and me, it is about dignity and respect for the entire autistic spectrum. If you have thrown away your self respect, well then, that is your choice,as an autistic person you should be free to do that so long as it is an informed choice but do not complain when people excercise there choice in return to point that out to you.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 10:06 AM  

  • John, the Asperger's diagnostic category did not exist before 1994, and that category is likely to be removed from the next edition of the DSM because many professionals do not think that it is useful to make a distinction based on the age at which a person begins to speak. "Autistic" is properly used to refer to all people who are within the autism spectrum.

    By Blogger abfh, at 10:21 AM  

  • ABFH,
    Would you have us believe that Ari Ne'eman suffers from the same condition as my son? Would you have us believe it is only about speech?

    Playing games with semantics will not help severely disabled people avoid being institutionalized.

    I don't suppose Ari can conjure up a response to me himself.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 10:42 AM  

  • More precisely, the existence of the Asperger's diagnostic category is all about speech, in that it refers to people with behaviors characteristic of autism who had no significant delay in developing speech. Go read the diagnostic criteria for yourself, John.

    And no, playing games with semantics will not help anyone avoid being institutionalized. What will accomplish that is closing the institutions and replacing them with community services and supports. That is exactly what Ari has been spending a great deal of his time advocating for, in case you hadn't noticed.

    I don't suppose Ari will bother responding to you either.

    By Blogger abfh, at 11:19 AM  

  • ABFH,
    Have you ever been in an institution? I worked in one.

    Can you honestly say that the autistic people who are sent there can ever live anyplace else? I suppose it could be done if you had 6'8" males to send to every home 24 hours a day so they might control autistic adults without hurting them when their behavior endangers everyone else in the home. Of course, when the autistic person is also 6'8", you would need two or three of these large males to control them safely.

    Since Ari never has to be concerned that he will be institutionalized due to his uncontrollable behavior (which he does not have), I think it's important for his credibility to address this issue. We parents have to face this issue and it's not something that can be ignored.

    Ari, can you demonstrate your honesty here and respond?

    By Blogger Foresam, at 12:03 PM  

  • John, I wrote a post about a class action lawsuit involving residents of California institutions, which was brought by disability rights groups and people with developmental disabilities.

    Many of the state officials who were involved in running the institutions testified that the residents, even those with the most significant challenges, could live in the community with appropriate supports and services.

    By Blogger abfh, at 1:03 PM  

  • ABFH, you say asperger's was defined in 1994. Ari from what I understand was born in approximately 1987, so the category has been in existence since he was about 7 years old. Yet according to his bio and what I read he did not have this diagnosis until age 12. Previous to this he had an ADHD diagnosis. Therefore, John does have a point in questioning Ari's diagnosis. If Ari were like John's son or like I was at age 3 with a severe speech delay his parents undoubtedly would have found something wrong and sought medical attention for him. Since Asperger's existed in 1994 why wasn't Ari given an ASD label at age 7. It does make his whole "i'm autistic" gambit somewhat suspect. I don't know all of Ari's life details or what lead to his diagnosis at age 12 rather than age 7, so i guess i don't know the whole story. However, what I do know of it, it would seem he is in fact not representative of any kind of autistic person regardless of the issue of Asperger's vs HFA.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 1:35 PM  

  • Larry, though I was not there, from what I heard you did not just ask Dawson one question. You were making loud noises, constantly trying to put fourth your agenda and making loud comments throughout Dawson's speech. I have also heard from other people that you have tended to do this and heckle people at other conferences besides this IMFAR one. The fact that more than one person has told me these stories about you does give them some credibility.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 1:41 PM  

  • Jonathon Asperger's paper was not published in English until the 1980's and the syndrome was not formally named and included in the DSM or ICD 10 till much later.

    As is the case with any condition, it has to be widely known before it is diagnosed. You cannot diagnose a disorder that does not officially exist until it does.

    Incidentally Dr Johnson, also used to behave much like me, it did not cause history to have any less regard for his intellectual achievements, he is thought to have had Tourettes. You will find there is nothing unique or special in the way I act. Matthew Belmonte had no excuse whatever besides rudeness and malice, and sheer hatred.

    Yes others are familiar with the way I am and have been able to handle it. The NAS can handle it, it does not make me a bad and evil person. If that is your belief then you are even more deluded than I thought.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 2:05 PM  

  • ABFH,
    Will you define "appropriate supports and services"? Will you agree that 6'8" males are a necessity for safety?

    If you close all the institutions, you create smaller institutions known as group homes. The only difference to the residents is that they appear less horrifying to the public when a few severely disabled people are seen together rather than hundreds of them.

    No matter how you slice it, the residents of those group homes are still prisoners out of necessity because they can not safely traverse the outside world. They can never enjoy freedom because their safety will always be an issue.

    I believe your cult likes to call this vague solution you propoae "moving the goalposts".

    By Blogger Foresam, at 2:10 PM  

  • In case some people hadn't noticed, making loud, often impulsive (or unrestrained) noises and comments - although not a diagnostic characteristic of autism - is certainly far from being rare amongst people with autism.

    Larry pretty much vocalises in this way even when he agrees profoundly with what the person says, and even when the conversation is merely going on in the background.

    Larry has not one , but TWO recognised disabilities that affect language and communication. People at autism conferences should expect some attendees to be autistic. Although it would be eneficial for Larry to rein in his vocal impulsivity, it should be no suprise to anyone at a autism conference that this almost archetypal behaviour should happen.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:11 PM  

  • Just a few points to add:

    There is debate over whether or not Aspergers is distinct enough from core autism to deserve it's own criteria, especially as the core features are essentially the same. Aspergers is seen as a form of autism for most practical, academic and therapeutic purposes, and only someone who is very pedantic would make a point of arguing it is not simply because it is given a slightly different number in a book somewhere (which the person who is making this arguement appears to think is a pile of shite anyways)

    "The only difference to the residents is that they appear less horrifying to the public when a few severely disabled people are seen together rather than hundreds of them" re: group homes.

    Well, the other differences are being closer to family and being able to maintain family relations, being closer to urban centres and being able to shop with support, being closer to office and industrial districts and being more able to maintain employment with support, easier access to local amentities and services. often greater autonomy and input into the general running of the establishement, and a list of other things.

    Although their are many people that will happily criticise group homes, and point to minor adverse incidents as evidence that group homes don't work, there is a general feeling that group homes provide less over-stimulation and a better quality of life than mass-institutions. Of course, you will always get the random person that rants on about extreme scenarios.

    If you were getting people with autism who were so uncontrollable that they need 3-1 24/7 then not only is that a rare case (I've heard of one nationally so far and that was about 3 years ago), but if it isn't, you really need to look at what your service is doing to allow so many people to escalate so badly.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 2:43 PM  

  • I have to disagree about group homes. This is one of many testimonies which say the differences are minimal.
    http://www.autistics.org/library/conversation.html
    Everyone should be allowed to live in their own home, or with flatemates and/or family. If they need 3 strong men to help care for them 24/7 (and I thik that very few if any people do) then so be it.

    By Anonymous sanabituranima, at 4:03 PM  

  • Anon (Is that you, Andrews),
    People with severe autism don't go shopping, will never be employed anyplace and don't even realize they are part of a family. They are so far "out in left field" that they are oblivious to the world. I guess you have never seen a low functioning autistic person to be so unaware of these facts.

    When these people go berserk, you do need a few people to control them safely. As they don't normally all go berserk at the same time of day, having them in an institution with 3 or 4 people assigned to 10 or 12 of them may be sufficient to allow one person to keep an eye on the rest while the person having a meltdown is dealt with. Having a 3 to 1 ratio to manage one single person is slightly cost prohibitive but that's what you need to handle these people safely.

    Leave it to an anonymous coward to try to present this ridiculous argument in the wrong context.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 4:15 PM  

  • Foresam, I am not anonymous.

    And let me tell you something, and Harold too.

    I don't know precisely what each person means when they talk about institutions, that can mean anything from a group home to a convent.

    However like it or not, I do have the responsibility for the governance of residential homes, schools and even a special hospital.

    That is not to say that I see that as a long term goal to perpetuate, because there are alternatives. The alternatives take money, they take commitment from Government and Commissioners. Harold you may call yourself an advocate, I don't really know what you do, but if you do not think I have a responsibility far greater than yours as a parent you are much mistaken.

    Foresam I think you are trapped in a mistaken ideology that is destroying you and your son. If you still see his future as being in an institution, then clearly you are not demonstrating much commitment to your ideology of a cure.

    You need help. No not for your mental condition, I'm not speculating, you need help with your son, you need help to understand autism and how to prevent the cycle you are in.

    You have to surf the wave of autism, not stand like Canute against it.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 4:46 PM  

  • Larry,
    I'm not just talking about my kid. There are hundreds of thousands of others who aren't being cured.

    Ari Ne'eman would have us deny their existence while he tries to tell the world he is the image of autism.

    Nice attempt to obfuscate the truth, Larry.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 5:07 PM  

  • "Anon (Is that you, Andrews),"

    No. This illustrates the problem that many anti-ND's have with estimating the true scope and number of the ND movement. Anyone who disagrees is seen as being a sockpuppet of someone else, merely becuase it's inconceivable that there could be many ND's out there. Thus the circle of underestimation continues.

    "People with severe autism don't go shopping, will never be employed anyplace and don't even realize they are part of a family."

    Even if the ridiculous accusation that ND people don't care about the more severely disabled were true (it isn't - try googling what some of the ND people actually do for a living), people of such severity as you describe are far from representing the full story of autism.

    "I guess you have never seen a low functioning autistic person to be so unaware of these facts."

    As I've stated above, I've met (and treated) people with autism (and Down syndrome/dementia/CVA/parkinsons/OA/OP etc) who are so severely disabled that they are unresponsive to sensation, much less handling or instruction.

    If you really did need 3-1 then that indicates that your place dealt with what would be considered the very severe end of the spectrum, or that they had needs in addition to autism.

    The alternative is that your place didn't manage these people well, failing to control the environment and leading to escalations. Going beserk is not a characteristic of autism, it's a characteristic of frustration and over-stimulation.

    Had you kept your knowledge base up to date you would have known this.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:30 PM  

  • "Ari Ne'eman would have us deny their existence while he tries to tell the world he is the image of autism."

    Direct quote or shut up and fuck off.

    Given that you are so obsessed with putting your name to things, you will gladly provide a quote and show that he is actually doing what you say he is.

    Time to be brave and put your name on the line.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:33 PM  

  • 1st Anon,
    One neuronitwit's as good as another. Most of you are afraid to show your faces so you should just give yourselves numbers so we have something to call you..you know...neuronitwit 101 or Dr nitwit 101 so we can know which personna we're dealing with.

    I worked in an institution. That's where the very severe end of the spectrum is sent. You're kinda slow for someone who alleges to treat people. But, you're right, they treated all of them by drugging them into oblivion and refusing to cure them with chelation, same as Neuroinsanity advises.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 6:31 PM  

  • 2nd anon,
    Ne'eman claims he's autistic. What else do you need to know to answer your question? He isn't.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 6:32 PM  

  • He is, Best. He's on the AUTISTIC Spectrum - as am I. Stop lying about Ari.

    Mitchell, in 1994 not every psych was using the DSM-IV instantly. It is not without foundation that Ari would have been missed for five years. In fact he may have been caught by the DSM-IV-TR (which was 1999). So don't speculate based opn limited views. Oh I forgot - that's your bread and butter.

    And by the way - don't deny you're a troll. You have already confessed to being a nuisance (a "gadfly"). What do you think a troll is, hmmm?

    It's the same thing, idiot!!

    One more thing about Best, people. He NEVER EVER worked in an institution. NEVER EVER.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 8:30 PM  

  • ABFH, I don't think the Aspergers DX will be removed in the DSM-V. I think it's more likely to be redefined. The trouble is that there were a lot of similarities between the work of Hans Asperger and that of Leo Kanner. We have to remember that Kanner's Syndrome wasn't LFA (they were still being DXed with MR until 1994 at the latest depending on the existence of a functioning level). It was HFA or PDD-NOS - as we define it now. The mid functioning aspect was the main difference between the two men. Kanner had one in his work - Asperger didn't.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 8:38 PM  

  • Timelord,
    I saw a draft of the new DSM and they have gone to great lengths to separate Asperger's from malingerers. So, you will soon be out of luck and will have to get a job.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 9:09 PM  

  • So will you, malingering sidewinder! Phil can't work because of the CMO and you damn well know that. That DSM won't change that.

    By Blogger Tex, at 11:04 PM  

  • Tex,
    Then Phil should ask Ari to mount an attack on Australia so they will allow deranged mental cases like Phil to find work.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 11:16 PM  

  • Phil's got that in hand, Beasty Boy! Wait and see!

    Hey how many people have donated on each of his posts here? Plenty I'll bet! The more you talk the more money gets donated to ASAN, el dumbo! Get the hint!

    By Blogger Scratcher, at 12:09 AM  

  • I saw a draft of the new DSM

    HAHAHAHAHAHAHA!

    I'm closer to the draft of the DSM-V than you are, Best! You don't see anyone in the psychiatric field at any time at all. I see someone every month.

    Tex, I wouldn't call Best a malingerer myself - I'd call him something else. And thanks for saving me the trouble about the CMO, Craig!

    By Blogger Timelord, at 7:01 AM  

  • Timenut,
    I exchange investment strategies with some people in the nutjob industry. They have some good jokes to tell about their cases (you) but they don't share inside information with crazy people like you.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 9:27 AM  

  • "Anon (Is that you, Andrews)"

    Um... no.

    I have my own name on here.

    "I worked in an institution"

    You belong in one...

    "I resent how you dismiss the other side with your seeming disgust at rabble rousers."

    Lurker, go play marbles on a busy motorway.

    By Blogger David N. Andrews M. Ed. (Distinction), at 10:05 AM  

  • Would you have us believe that Ari Ne'eman suffers from the same condition as my son?

    Take it up with the psychologists. They haven't figured out what other than IQ separates low functioning from high functioning in terms of long term outcome.

    By Blogger Joseph, at 10:13 AM  

  • Joe,
    Nice to see you. Have we talked since you declared your fear of me by banning me from your blog?

    Here's the key difference, Joe. People with autism do not join Neuroinsanity and write trash that claims they want to remain disabled. Only people who can already function can be that evil.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 12:05 PM  

  • @John: You lost every single argument you ever engaged in at my blog. I banned you because you crossed a line, and I have no plans to ever allow you back. It would simply be a waste of time for everyone involved.

    As to your claim to the effect that autistics would never join the neurodiversity movement, well, what is your evidence of this? Sounds like you're simply trying to deny the self-evident.

    As I noted recently, autistics who approve of neurodiversity are high functioning, but so are autistics who actively oppose neurodiversity. What you observe is an artifact of the skills required to self-advocate.

    By Blogger Joseph, at 3:14 PM  

  • According to the statistics published by California DDS, only 13% of the people who reside in the big institutions for the developmentally disabled are autistic. 41% have Cerebral Palsy and 50% have Epilepsy. 97.7% have MR, with 59% having profound MR. 90% have medical problems.

    The problems with institutions aren't unique to autistic people. If there were a cure for autism, it wouldn't do much to address those problems, since most of the inmates of these institutions aren't autistic.

    I think that many of the autism rights issues are shared with other branches of the disability rights community. While it's understandable that some advocates are motivated by the specific diagnosis of a family member, a broader focus is needed in order to address some of the more pervasive problems in providing services to disabled people.

    By Blogger Anne, at 3:45 PM  

  • Joseph your arguments about high functioning ND's versus high functioning pro curebie is baloney. You gave me as one example, though I worked sporadically, i have been unemployed for a while and have had to apply for SSDI. I spent most of my school years in special education. I have bad fine motor coordination problems. Tom Mckean another example you gave of high functioning spent many years in an institution and is on SSI and has never worked as far as I know.

    Sue Rubin is unable to speak, is still going to college at age 31 and will probably never work or lead any sort of typical life. I know something about Sue as I have met both her and her parents. I don't think you have.

    You on the other hand, work in the IT industry and are married. Many other ND's apparently work good jobs and are married and except for Ari Nee'man and allegedly amanda baggs with the emphasis on allegedly on her part I know of no ND's who spent any time in special education. So your argment there is really specious.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 4:11 PM  

  • Joseph your arguments about high functioning ND's versus high functioning pro curebie is baloney. You gave me as one example, though I worked sporadically, i have been unemployed for a while and have had to apply for SSDI.Do you have an IQ below 70? I didn't think so. Your lack of employment and such are irrelevant, since I can find you a bunch of pro-neurodiversity people who are unemployed.

    Neither are my personal achievements relevant at all.

    Few neurodiversity proponents are married. I can think of maybe 3 or 4. Some autistics do get married. It happens. It's not my fault you can't get a girlfriend.

    You are clearly articulate in your writing, which is what neurodiversity proponents are apparently guilty of. That's the whole point.

    All autistics who actively oppose neurodiversity are articulate. Period.

    By Blogger Joseph, at 5:33 PM  

  • Well Jonathan the point is no matter how badly off you think you are there is usually someone else who had it worse.

    My dad finished his education aged 12, which is better, special education or none at all?

    Then of course he had the war to contend with, the Coventry Blitz, all of that, and then eventually he was drafted into the army.

    My mum did not fare much better, although she completed her education, in those days 15 was the school leaving age. She gave up a possible career in nursing to marry my dad.

    In later life they split up, when she became severely disabled, and I mean severely. In spite of needing 24/hr care to keep her out of an institution, inspite of her relative lack of education, she went on to lecture to nursing students, and eventually the week before she died was appointed to the board of a local hospital.

    There is a spectrum of arthritis like there is of autism, and you can say perhaps that osteo arthritis does not compare to rheumatoid (which my mum had) yet at the most severe end of the spectrum she found a meaning for her life.

    It is pointless making comparisons within a heirarchy of impairments, which is worse, what is more limiting, because at the end of it, it comes down to what you are prepared to do with it. My mum could not stand pity.

    My desire, when she died was to do right by her, and that means that my activities do not stop with neurodiversity but cover the whole impairment spectrum.

    That is the way it is, what is stopping you? It is not autism!!!!

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 5:39 PM  

  • AutieWolf wonders what got the curetards all up in a buzz, Autiewolf also wonders if it's naptime yet and if they should get their milk and cookies and lie down.

    Autiewolf doesn't feel like getting into shitfest, because Autiewolf knows that it will be like the oroboros the snake that eats his tail.

    Autiewolf is amused at the trollulz wonders why curbies want to cure something that have no clue on what it really is, also wonders why curbies can help the "Crippled disabled Children" without crapping on everyone else.

    Autiewolf noms on popcorn and will tell ABFH that she will be mentioning this on her podcast Prism*Vox, Autiewolf wishes that her limited income won't be so limited so she could donate.

    Autiewolf isn't coward, Autiewolf will even give her REAL phone number out, to see how brave the curetards are.

    614-806-6387 -->Autiewolf (Anne C.)

    Autiewolf has nothing to loose since her name isn't famous. Autiewolf wants to see if curetards will harrass "Crippled and disable" woman

    Waiting for the lulz

    Bard.

    By Blogger NightStorm, at 5:55 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger Clay, at 6:29 PM  

  • I wrote, earlier:

    Still no denial...

    Simple question, Jon, who pays your rent? It's been 2 years since you got sacked, and you claim you haven't lived with your mom for the last 25, so how are you getting by? Are you typing on a laptop, while sitting in a dumpster? No? Then who pays your rent, buys your groceries, pays your utilities, and keeps you in bon-bons? Gotta be your mom, your sister, or JB Handley (or some other curebie group). Answer the question!
    ~

    Still no response, though he's responded to others since. You can't deny it, can you, Jonathan? That proves that ALL of your blog, and ALL of your comments are nothing but SHILLINESS !!!You're a PAID TRAITOR and so are beneath contempt. If it were up to me, I'd ban you and Best and Lurker, and any other annoying troll who pops up, but that's not up to me.

    I don't represent ASAN or "Neurodiversity", and I don't claim to speak for you, or Conor, or Sam, or anyone besides myself. I believe in changing what can be changed, fixing what can be fixed, and helping those who can be helped. You can wish for a cure on one hand, and shit in the other, and see which one gets full first. But all your "advocating" for a cure is nothing but shilliness.

    By Blogger Clay, at 6:37 PM  

  • Clay I can only conclude that a 63 year old man whose only income is social security which would have low payment rates at that age not possibly enough to live on, has not had a relationship with his mother at age 14 must have an income someplace else. Since your mother is not supporting you, you don't work, can't possibly live on what social security pays you. No one could possibly act as idiotically as you act in real life, that your whole stuff must be an act.

    Clearly you are in cahoots with autism speaks, JB Handley or some other pro cure group who does not like neurodiversity to make the neurodiversity look bad. You are nothing but a paid shill. The evidence could not possibly be clearer. How much are AS or JB paying you to act like such an idiot, Clay? That has to be the only reason for your behavior. To make ND look bad.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 7:01 PM  

  • Hi Autiewolf, welcome to my blog! Always good to see a new face around here. Enjoy your popcorn.

    I have one request -- please do not use the term "curetard" or any other "tard" insult on my site. I am a supporter of the Special Olympics' campaign to end the use of the R-word, which is also supported by ASAN and many other disability rights groups.

    By Blogger abfh, at 7:07 PM  

  • Autiewolf watches Clay and Jon go back and forth. Autiewolf wonders if this anything like tennis? Autiewolf this is a lot better than tennis
    *nomnomnom*

    By Blogger NightStorm, at 7:10 PM  

  • Autiewolf will grudgingly stop using that word, Autiewolf has too much respect for ABFH and will be a good autiewolf.

    Autiewolf talks both in third and first person, but will talk in third today for amusement's sake :3

    By Blogger NightStorm, at 7:16 PM  

  • I exchange investment strategies with some people in the nutjob industry.This coming from a lunatic who brags about backing the winner at the Kentucky Derby......

    Mitchell, you are also causing people to donate to ASAN. Troll. Nick off.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 7:29 PM  

  • Hey Gluyas, still pissed because hardly anyone reads or comments on mitchell's gadfly? You make a jackass out of yourself there and you are doing so here. I already said, that fine, anyone who wants to donate money to ASAN in my name for every comment i make here or on my blog that's fine with me. I hope you all go broke donating in my name.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 7:49 PM  

  • Jonathan said:
    Clay I can only conclude that a 63 year old man ~

    Wrong again, I'm only 62, (for a few more months anyway).

    whose only income is social security which would have low payment rates at that age not possibly enough to live on, ~

    Yeah, I could have gotten about $250 more if I had waited until I was 66, but that would have meant working another 4 years! You know what a bitch that is! And I've already worked for 45 years, that's enough. What I get is adequate to pay my bills, and I have a lot of experience at living frugally, not being the ostentatious type.

    has not had a relationship with his mother since (correction) age 14 must have an income someplace else. ~

    I guess being dependent on your mother for so long has made you think that mothers are the only form of support there is???

    Since your mother is not supporting you, you don't work, can't possibly live on what social security pays you. ~

    My mother never did support me, I've worked all my life, and have managed to save some money. Don't worry about me, I wouldn't have retired if I didn't think I would be able to pay my bills. I have excellent credit too, score of 800 or better.

    No one could possibly act as idiotically as you act in real life, that your whole stuff must be an act.

    Clearly you are in cahoots with autism speaks, JB Handley or some other pro cure group
    ~

    Those two comments sound exactly like John Best, he's always accusing others of what he does himself.

    And you still haven't denied that you're a shill!

    By Blogger Clay, at 7:58 PM  

  • Hmmm, maybe Mitchell is waiting for Handley or whoever to tell him what to say now....

    Can you deny it or not?

    By Blogger Clay, at 10:33 PM  

  • "Hey Gluyas, still pissed because hardly anyone reads or comments on mitchell's gadfly?"

    Hey, big mouth, I read it! So do plenty of other people. You're the pissed one, sidewinder! Get off the booze. You do realize that money to ASAN won't get spent on what you want don't you?

    By Blogger Tex, at 10:51 PM  

  • Clay, it looks like Jon has decided to play with a sockpuppet instead of answering you.

    Jon, you've been watching too many cowboy movies. "Sidewinder." LOL.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 12:50 AM  

  • Larry said (to Mitchell):

    It is pointless making comparisons within a hierarchy of impairments, which is worse, what is more limiting, because at the end of it, it comes down to what you are prepared to do with it. My mum could not stand pity. ~

    I'll salute your mum, and you too, for caring for her. She had a good attitude.

    Too bad Jonathan doesn't see "pity" the same way - he craves it, eats it up. I think he has it confused with "pudding". Now that's pitiful!

    By Blogger Clay, at 1:19 AM  

  • It is noticable isn't it, that the longest threads on blogs are those whose posts are bumped up by the Trolls.

    The level of debate is also so much the worse for it.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 5:15 AM  

  • Larry,
    You may become a better debater if you can avoid name calling.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 7:00 AM  

  • Larry,
    You may become a better debater if you can avoid name calling.


    Doing the same might help you - but probably not.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 7:38 AM  

  • Anon who thinks Tex is a sockpuppet of someone else - sorry, he's a real person. I should know - I've met him!

    The last Anon - Best doesn't know how to debate without name calling so that's a lost cause.

    Clay you said a mouthful! And as for you, Mitchell, I take your assertion that I'm making a fool of myself on that blog as a compliment coming from you - after all, it's easy to make an assumption like that from behind the dark metaphorical glasses that you have worn for more than 50 years!

    By Blogger Timelord, at 8:07 AM  

  • @jonathan:

    You talk about age at diagnosis, as if you weren't diagnosed at a later age than Ari was after self-diagnosing in response to an Elvis Presley drama about autism. Glass houses, dude. Like a typical rich person you allow no differences in country, culture, era, class, region, income, family, or anything else which makes the difference between age at diagnosis. Not everyone was born with a silver spoon in their mouth and the latest in psychiatric treatments in their family's ears. I'm saying this for the benefit of those who might take your rhetoric seriously.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 11:28 AM  

  • Where's Ari?
    Does he think the people who expose him as a sham will disappear because he can't answer any of our questions?

    By Blogger Foresam, at 1:12 PM  

  • @ForeSame

    Do you really think a college student has time to waste with bunch of self-pitying adults? Who has to find some sort of scapegoat to blame for their children dignosis? Honestly he's reason that is not bothering to rolling the mud with you is because Ari is so much better than that.

    Too bad I can't say the same for you and Jon who seem to be still moving through the stages of grief.

    and how come you two aren't ringing up my phone? Who's being the coward now?

    By Blogger NightStorm, at 2:06 PM  

  • Trollpig said:
    Where's Ari? ~

    He's out there doing some actual, constructive work, trying to make things better for all autistics, wherever they are on the spectrum. He's much too busy to wrestle with pigs, and is cognizant of the futility in doing so.

    Me, I got nuthin' better to do. :-)

    By Blogger Clay, at 2:17 PM  

  • Anonymous too cowardly to sign their name:

    I am a generation older than Ari, more than 30 years older. So naturally I was not diagnosed in 1958 when I was 3 years old. In 1958 my parents took me to a pediatric neurologist who had no idea what was wrong with me because hardly anyone had heard of autism.

    Did Ari have similar types of problems in 1990 that would have his parents had him evaluated I suspect not because it is much more likely he would have received a diagnosis of autism in 1990 than someone who was his age in 1958 when hardly anyone heard of autism. If you actually read my posts on gadfly more carefully you would realize it.

    I don't get the picture that Ari exactly comes from a lower socioeconomic background that would have precluded an autism diagnosis for him at age 3 either.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 3:11 PM  

  • NightStorm, so the great college student Ari is so high and above those with concerns that he doesn't need to talk to them? Where does that same college student get the time to do all of his advocacy efforts then? I guess the "self-pitying" riff-raff don't matter to him and their concerns are below consideration, even though their concerns/questions are about the same issues that Ari tries to determine policy regarding, and are about the same issues they have a stake in. Oh, how dare anyone express disappointment about terrible circumstances, lest they be castigated for being "self-pitying".

    Clay, Ari isn't helping enough when it comes to the lower-functioning part of the spectrum, as he doesn't push for therapies that would remove disabilities for the lower-functioning. Even though he is involved in efforts to improve services and other things, it's inexcusable that he tries to prevent disability-removing therapies from being devised.

    By Blogger lurker, at 3:31 PM  

  • Night Storm,
    Ari isn't better than anyone. We've called him out and tried to educate him as to the facts about autism.

    He might not even be aware of the why he disseminates the propaganda that he is engaged in. We can't help cure him of his illness if he won't talk to us.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 4:40 PM  

  • Did Ari have similar types of problems in 1990 that would have his parents had him evaluated I suspect not because it is much more likely he would have received a diagnosis of autism in 1990.

    Except for the movie Rain Man, was 1990 all that different to 1950? That was 4 years before the DSM-IV. The DSM-III-R had only been around 3 years.

    Either way, it's easy to show that awareness of autism in 2009 is orders of magnitudes higher than in 1990.

    I'm not sure what the point of this pissing contest is, though.

    By Blogger Joseph, at 4:43 PM  

  • I think the rules of the pissing contest seem to be. "If I am more autistic than you, then I get to win the argument because anything I say is more important"

    It is of course ridiculous.

    The whole practice of diagnosis is historically blurred, blurred by clinicians practice and experience, and blurred by ever changing definitions, no wonder I prefer the social model of disability, where it is not diagnosis or lable that matters, but the degree to which an impairment needs accomodating in society against the degree to which that need is not met.

    Therapy indeed, ..

    Education is a better word.

    Brains are educated, not fixed like broken bones or injured muscles.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 5:44 PM  

  • Joseph I am rather surprised that someone who seems to have the expertise you have on CDDS data that you demonstrate on natural variation would make such a statement.

    I would think that you of all people would know that according to the 2003 california report that gives prevalences by birth year of autistics served by california's regional center shows that the prevalence was 4/10,000 in 1970 and that this tripled to about 12/10,000 in 1990. It more than doubled from 4/10,000 in 1970 to about 9/10,000 in 1986 probably about a year before Ari was born. Since your constantly reject any notion that something in the environment made those autism rates rise in all your posts, then it must be explained by some other phenomenon like increased awareness or more people born in those years being diagnosed. So not only was there a huge difference between 1950 and 1990, there was a huge difference between 1970 and 1990 and even 1970 and 1986. So this makes it more likely Ari would be diagnosed at age 3 if he had problems similar to mine at that age.

    If Ari is going to speak for all autistics as he clearly does in that abominable PSA film that ASAN made, then he should explain why he is more representative than I am or some other pro cure autist.

    By Blogger jonathan, at 6:41 PM  

  • The social model of disability is no more able to deal with those of us with invisible disabilities as the medical model. Both have enabling, and both have disabling qualities.

    We should now get our heads round the fact that binary oppositions, in a post-structuralist theoretical framework in which we now operate, are not only outdated, but sufficiently inflexible to accommodate the complexities demanded of twenty-first century disability politics.

    The bio-psycho-social model is that which best serves the purposes of this time and place. It admits of 'within-person' issues, which are deeply rooted and resistant to outside change, as they derive from known conditions which are an intrinsic part of the person concerned. However, it recognises that social and environmental issues (and other people) play a facilitative or obstructive part in helping or hindering these within-person issues to be enabled or disabled.

    It is a model which recognises the issue, while allowing modifications to be made to the environment, or to attitudes, which can bring out the best in all people, and celebrate the best someone can do, even if that best may be different from a norm. And it gives all people the option to include others, by accommodations and understanding.

    It also recognises the part which temporality and developmental change play in a flexible and iterative ongoing relationship to care for and nurture all types of difference.

    Let's be done with positivism and modernism. Let's be fluid and flexible and, well, kind. Let's embrace post-modernism.

    Open-mindedness is the first step. Nothing gets done by fighting. Does it? No one should ever hurt or threaten anyone else. Wars just kill people. Playground insults are the refuge of idiots.

    Can we have an end to black and white thinking? If life were black and white - extreme - we would never be able to view its photograph. It's greyscale which enables us to see the complexities of what we record, and what we make of the life we visualise for ourselves and for others with disabilities.

    By Blogger Barbara, at 6:43 PM  

  • I would think that you of all people would know that according to the 2003 california report that gives prevalences by birth year of autistics served by california's regional center shows that the prevalence was 4/10,000 in 1970 and that this tripled to about 12/10,000 in 1990.

    You're doing it wrong. What it is in 2003 doesn't matter in terms of quantifying awareness back in the early 1990s. What you want to see is how it was reported back then. Of course that will be higher when you look at 2003. (After all, Ari got diagnosed, didn't he?)

    Unfortunately, the reports only go back to 1992. So if you look at those born in 1988, as reported in 1992, there are 138 autistics. The number of 4 year olds in 1992 was 500,733. So you have an admin. prevalence of 2.75 in 10,000 for 4 year olds.

    Any way you see it, it's clear that those autistics born around 1990 didn't get diagnosed (or registered with CDDS as autistic) until much later.

    If you want to quantify awareness, though, I think a better way is to look at newspaper articles on autism, relative to all newspaper articles (in Google News is probably the only place this can be done.)

    By Blogger Joseph, at 7:08 PM  

  • Barbara, most of the black and white thinking you are seeing here is coming from people on the Spectrum. It's a trait. It can be seen as a negative and it's showing itself as such here. I don't know about NightStorm and the anonymous poster - but everyone else who has posted since I last did is on the Spectrum - officially or closet. Best, Mitchell, Joseph, Clay, Larry and Cresp. Larry put the best point about education - something that Best, Mitchell and Cresp either aren't interested in or if they are it's only on their terms. The rest of us can see that because they are so predictable - and I guess we are guilty of debating them in terms they can understand.

    Ari doesn't do that because he sees that as a waste of time. I don't agree, but I respect his decision to avoid people who are completely deluded. He is concentrating on the positives and promoting them as such and I say good for him.

    I see Mitchell is trying to use statistics to prove his point. It won't work. He is yet to explain away the difference between a diagnosis of classic Autism and Aspergers Syndrome in statistical terms. How many DX's were there of Aspergers before 1994? How old was Ari then? He was older than 3 as Mitchell himself has observed. Aspergers in it's basic mild form is hard to diagnose before puberty anyway because of the lack of speech delay. It would only be noticed in an intolerant household (like Best's or Mitchell's for example) that has a strict definition of "normal". That fact blows any stat Mitchell wants to come up with up in a puff of smoke.

    And Cresp is lying when he accuses Ari of not supporting structures and help for the low functioning. Cresp has jumped to that conclusion based on Ari's most obvious work, without scratching beneath the surface. Typically lazy of an intolerant person brought up that way.

    Yes I'm a black and white thinker as well. After all I'm Aspie. And just for Mitchell's information I could have been DXed with Autism when I was 2 - if they'd known about Aspergers work then. That was in 1967 by the way. Mind you, I think I've got Aspergers a little worse than Ari has.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 7:18 PM  

  • Also, Jon, don't you think 12 in 10,000 is ridiculously low for the 1990 birth year cohort, especially when reported in 2003? Baird et al. (2006) found a prevalence of 1% in children born between 1990 and 1991 in South Thames, UK.

    By Blogger Joseph, at 7:29 PM  

  • "Yes I'm a black and white thinker as well. After all I'm Aspie."


    Oh heck, don't do biological determinism on me! It's wasted!

    That's what Best does.

    It's not what life or politics is about. I haven't yet known an intelligent Aspie who can't argue for social justice, not based on a simplistic model.

    Most AS I've 'met', like yourself, have risen above the primitive Best medical model formulations of cure or catastrophe. It's pretty barbaric. He's been doing DAN and chelation for four years now, dragging his son around, and got nowhere (although he was promising us four years ago that his son would be cured), and isn't now able to say that maybe his son is OK, but needs some kindness and understanding, and accommodation, and that maybe he himself is part of the problem. Eh?

    So embrace greyscale and work with it. It's complex and effective.

    That's the way to go

    :)

    By Blogger Barbara, at 7:50 PM  

  • The social model of disability hardly applies to any mental disability at all. It just doesn't work. I don't see how any middle ground will make it better. Any theory that denies the significance of medical basis can't be without serious flaw.

    Timelord, I don't like that you regard education as a way for indoctrination into ideology, and not as learning and information getting which it should only be. Acknowledge that there are limitations on the amount of learning that can be done, which depend on the cognitive/functional capacity of the brain. Pay attention to what I said. I didn't deny that Ari supports structures for the LFA. I know he is for services. I however don't think it's acceptable that he's against therapies that would bring the LFA into higher functioning levels.

    By Blogger lurker, at 8:03 PM  

  • Barbara,
    There is, by definition, no such thing as an intelligent person with Asperger's. Asperger's is mercury induced brain damage and I have cured my son of it. It only took a few treatments. My other son remains autistic but much improved from his vegetative state.

    You should try using common English to avoid making yourself sound like an idiot. Autism is mercury poisoning and none of your convoluted terminology can change that.

    By Blogger Foresam, at 8:19 PM  

  • There is, by definition, no such thing as an intelligent person with Asperger's.

    You know, John, if persons with Asperger's routinely read the kind of comment you just posted, you could very well be right. I think everyone here lost a significant proportion of their neurons, just from your comments.

    BTW, I thought you had cured your son of ADHD. It's Asperger's now? What will it be next time you cure him?

    By Blogger Joseph, at 8:33 PM  

  • Timelord,

    Not to nitpick, but this:

    "Asperger's in its basic mild form is hard to diagnose before puberty anyway because of the lack of speech delay. It would only be noticed in an intolerant household (like Best's or Mitchell's for example) that has a strict definition of 'normal'."

    might be overstating the case. I spoke precociously, and yet was diagnosed at age 5 (PDD-NOS, not AS, since this was in 1989 or 1990). And my mom was asking the doctor if I might be different somehow even earlier than that, like when I was two.

    I'm not disputing your point about trends in diagnosis --- Aspies often do go undetected until adolescence or adulthood, and Ari, like me, was preschool-aged right around the time of the shift from DSM-III-R to DSM-IV. Just pointing out that, no, not all Aspies/PDD-NOSers/speaking autistics appeared perfectly normal as children.

    I do think parents might be readier to think "Hey, maybe my child is autistic" now and maybe even as far back as the '90s, because of the implementation of autism-specific special ed services.

    By Blogger Lindsay, at 10:56 PM  

  • Barbara, just to defend Phil/Timelord. Black and white is the most comfortable way to go for people like him. Grey areas are a threat. Phil hates grey areas that don't make sense. He's smart, and he knows how to make things black and white without it being obvious.

    Beasty Boy is talking out of his arse about intelligence in people like Phil and the others. Phil has said he's on the Spectrum and I think he's right.

    Hey Crespy Creme! Back off Phil! He knows what he's talking about. Get educated, you flaming dip! You can type so you got no excuses!

    By Blogger Scratcher, at 11:59 PM  

  • Barbara

    I believe more in reflectivism. http://74.125.95.132/search?q=cache:G7lVEpLuhs8J:www.csus.edu/indiv/v/velianitis/101/ReflectiveThinkingSkills.ppt+reflective+thinking&cd=5&hl=en&ct=clnk&gl=us

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 2:15 AM  

  • Barbara

    I do have a question for you. Is greyscale thinking always the best way to go? Why can't black and white be the best way to go sometimes just like greyscale can be the best way to go at other times?

    I say why can't you bounce off of both ways of thinking

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 2:17 AM  

  • Scratch, get someone reputable to defend. I wonder what your relationship is to Phil's psyche. I have no patience for Phil's irrationality laced tirades. I refuse to be reeducated.

    By Blogger lurker, at 3:46 AM  

  • Then YOU are making the choice to live in misery for the rest of your life, Cresp. Such a choice can never ever be respected. Go away.

    (Crespy Creme, Craig? LOL! I'm stealing that one! Thanks for the defence by the way mate)

    Lindsay, I disagree that I am overstating the case, although I'm willing to concede that if you are referring to a more general basis than specifically Best, Mitchell or Cresp then okay.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 7:04 AM  

  • Timelord, I don't have a choice. I inevitably am unhappy due to my horrific problems, which are an amusement to you, your cronies, and many others. I don't want to trick myself into phony happiness. Keep your nutcase ideas away from innocent people. I'm sick of those like you poisoning society with apathy and backward ideals.

    By Blogger lurker, at 7:34 AM  

  • " Barbara

    I do have a question for you. Is greyscale thinking always the best way to go? Why can't black and white be the best way to go sometimes just like greyscale can be the best way to go at other times?

    I say why can't you bounce off of both ways of thinking"

    I agree. Black and white is often the way to go in the natural sciences, for instance, but where disability politics is concerned, because that involves social processes, greyscale is more productive and successful.

    By Blogger Barbara, at 9:18 AM  

  • Here we go again, arguing through the re-ification of analogy.

    I play your soft ball off against my rainbow bat and run the result up the flagpole to see who swims to the rescue and shoots it down.

    Now I have lost my gist ....

    Apparantly what wins in the long term is not vaccillation but consistency, not changing for the sake of change, trying to be a man for all seasons. Of course not being on the losing side as Thomas More was, helps. Erasmus kept his head when all around were losing theres, and not just metaphorically.

    At the end of analysis all of us do what do for a reason, which in some cases can be externally deduced, for instance fire someone up with a particular set of values, a particular set of half truths and indoctrinate them that anyone who says anything else is part of a conspiracy and the results are predictable as we can see. (or least the "enlightened ones")

    Now where did I put that suitcase full of anti matter?

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 11:13 AM  

  • Larry said:
    The level of debate is also so much the worse for it. ~

    Does that mean we should follow your example, and fill our posts with vague obscurities, (which are apparently designed to impress others with your "knowledge"), and obfuscate the meaning of whatever you're trying to say? Did you google up a site of "obscure references" to use to confuse and confound whoever you're debating with? They should add "obscurum referenci" to the list of logical fallacies.

    By Blogger Clay, at 1:13 PM  

  • Don't you ever do the crosswords?

    What's so obscure about Erasmus and Thomas More? Robert Bolts play, "A man for all seasons was a bigtime movie in my day, don't you recall?

    It's my answer to the Beasts supposition that we are all members of the Illuminati,

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 2:11 PM  

  • It was Durer, who famously urged Erasmus to declare on which side of the reformation he took a stand. The whole thing is covered in Kenneth Clarkes "civilisation" which was culture for the masses. The same area has recently been covered on British TV in David Starkeys more historical reply to the HBO Henry VIII serial which is full of historical howlers.

    I am sorry if my cultural capital offends you, but I am not like to deny it just for peace and quiet. Come in handy for pub quizzes.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 2:25 PM  

  • While I rather enjoy historical references, it can sometimes be a challenge to explain them clearly enough in my posts so as not to confuse anyone.

    Larry, I've made fun of the Illuminati stuff too, such as in this post last year.

    By Blogger abfh, at 2:27 PM  

  • Well the real history of the "illuminati" - fringe masonry and rosicrucianism is fascinating, Frances Yates "The Rosicrucian Enlightenment" is the classic introduction.

    Some years ago I spent some time researching the Jacobite connection to Grand Orient Freemasonry courtesy of the library system in Birmingham. A fascinating diversion into late renaiscance politics.

    I can't help it if I am an inveterate serial scholar can I?

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 2:39 PM  

  • I have to confess to being part of the unwashed masses -- my knowledge of the Illuminati comes mainly from historical fantasy novels.

    By Blogger abfh, at 2:45 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger Clay, at 2:55 PM  

  • Larry said:
    What's so obscure about Erasmus and Thomas More? ~

    Erasmus who? Did he have a last name? ;-) Sorry, but most of your audience is in the cultural hinterlands here in the US.

    Those are just examples of your general "modus operandi" which I've observed over the nearly 10 years I've been reading you. Anyone as well-acquainted with your writings must have been highly amused at my pointing that out.

    I am sorry if my cultural capital offends you, but I am not likely to deny it just for peace and quiet. Comes in handy for pub quizzes. ~

    "Denying" is one thing, "showing off" is another. When you fail to show the *relevance* of whatever obscure reference you use, it comes off as the latter.

    By Blogger Clay, at 2:58 PM  

  • abfh said:
    -- my knowledge of the Illuminati comes mainly from historical fantasy novels. ~

    Oooh! I have some good ones, on the shelf behind me. "All Things Are Lights" and "The Saracen - The Holy War", both by Robert Shea, and "the Serpent's Circle", by Patrick Harpur. Well-researched and good reads. Had something by Humberto Eco, but can't find it now.

    By Blogger Clay, at 3:09 PM  

  • I am sure you do not want a lecture on Desiderius Erasmus of Rotterdam, he was a very important humanist scholar. Those were interesting times, when the arts, the sciences and philosophy were not the seperate silos that they are today.

    I am afraid that I have been aquainted with the guy for much longer than the 10 years or so I have been around the internet.

    We all owe a hell of a lot to these guys, Erasmus was an operator at the same time as Luther, and indeed helped Henry VIII write his famous refutation of Luther. The reformation took off the way it did because of the printing press, and humanist scholars were in the forefront. Erasmus is famous amongst other things for his religious satire "In praise of folly" because he was more of a satirist than a polemicist like Luther he managed to keep his head in those turbulent times.

    I happen to be interested in this stuff and I resent the inverse snobbery of people who call it all irrelevant.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 3:10 PM  

  • Perhaps then I am just being like Jude the Obscure in Hardy's novel, the guy from humble country origins who aspired to Oxford Scholarship.

    He was sponsored but he blew it all in a pub one day when he showed off by reciting the Nicene Crede in Latin, that was considered such a low, vulgar and blasphemous act that he was thereafter never admitted to Oxford, never mind the sundry other misfortunes he had to bear in the Novel.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 3:15 PM  

  • I'm currently re-reading Michael Moorcock's "The City in the Autumn Stars," which I originally read when it first came out in the 1980s. It's a well-crafted mix of swordplay, magic, and humanist philosophy.

    By Blogger abfh, at 3:36 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger Clay, at 3:37 PM  

  • Larry said:
    I happen to be interested in this stuff and I resent the inverse snobbery of people who call it all irrelevant. ~

    I didn't call it irrelevant, what I said was, "When you fail to show the *relevance* of whatever obscure reference you use, it comes off as the latter."

    And this isn't "inverse snobbery", I'm simply admitting that I haven't had the chance to camp out in libraries, as I've had to support myself since I was 17, (technically correct, as I joined the Navy 11 days before my 18th birthday). I might have done the same, if I'd had your opportunities to do so.

    By Blogger Clay, at 3:41 PM  

  • As I have pointed out before, my dad left school at 12 with very little education, and when he was of age he was drafted. His education really started in the Army. His aquaintance in the Army which during the war was a melting pot of all classes because of the draft brought him into contact with educated people. He endeavoured to make up for what he lost and to pass that new enthusiasm on to his children. My brother has read a truly astounding number of books.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 3:45 PM  

  • I said:
    I might have done the same, if I'd had your opportunities to do so. ~

    And then I probably would have been "full of myself" too. ;-)

    By Blogger Clay, at 3:46 PM  

  • So you'll understand, Larry, this comment:

    The level of debate is also so much the worse for it. ~

    sounded rather condescending to me, as has your long history of Hub-bashing. I hope you're happy with your new venue, and truly make it your home! Cheers.

    By Blogger Clay, at 4:35 PM  

  • " laurentius rex said...

    As I have pointed out before, my dad left school at 12 with very little education, and when he was of age he was drafted. His education really started in the Army. "

    AND.... the point of that is what, exactly, Larry? Bigging yerself up?

    Oh please stop pontificating. It's becoming tedious, and so not British/ironic. We are famous for irony and self-deprecation.

    You can be a real auto-didactic pain in the bum, sometimes :)

    By Blogger Barbara, at 5:50 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger Clay, at 6:25 PM  

  • Barbara said:
    AND.... the point of that is what, exactly, Larry? Bigging yerself up? ~

    As in, "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." ?

    But Larry is a perfectly cromulent advocate. ;-)

    (Google is your friend.)

    By Blogger Clay, at 6:27 PM  

  • This comment has been removed by the author.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 6:56 PM  

  • Timelord, I don't have a choice. I inevitably am unhappy due to my horrific problems

    BULLSHIT!!

    Inevitably my fucking foot! It's YOUR CHOICE!! And a bad one - and it CAN BE CORRECTED!!

    And I've told you how. Show some balls and DO IT! No fake happiness. REAL happiness will come. It's there - chase it!

    I'm sick of those like you poisoning society with apathy and backward ideals.

    That's you, not me. You are the one living in the 1950's attitude rut. This is 2009, Cresp. Move forward! You can do it. You have no excuse not to.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 6:59 PM  

  • ....but where disability politics is concerned, because that involves social processes, greyscale is more productive and successful.

    I'm sorry, Barbara, but that would actually harm a lot of those on the Spectrum. Greyscale is not possible for this reason. The social process has to be made black and white otherwise it will end up going in one ear and out the other.

    I'm not saying it's one size fits all, it's just that it's the majority "rule" (for want of a better word).

    Larry, I gave up trying to be obscure with Best a long time ago. He'll take it out of context in the worst possible way. Better to be direct and pull no punches.

    By Blogger Timelord, at 7:02 PM  

  • Timelord, prove to me it's my choice. You can't do that. So you resort to your vicious tirades. You didn't tell me how. Making myself a ward of the state won't help me, and you refuse to explain to me how, as you can't. What do the 1950s have to do with this? You are not progressive at all. New bullshit insane ideas aren't progressive. I don't need your platitudes.

    By Blogger lurker, at 7:10 PM  

  • "As in, "A noble spirit embiggens the smallest man." ?

    But Larry is a perfectly cromulent advocate. ;-)"

    Now that really made me laff,Clay!

    I LOVE Daniel X Cohen. Is this nerdcore?? I kinda think so.

    Hey hey!!!

    :)

    By Blogger Barbara, at 7:11 PM  

  • "...but where disability politics is concerned, because that involves social processes, greyscale is more productive and successful.

    I'm sorry, Barbara, but that would actually harm a lot of those on the Spectrum."

    It might. But you're not the only neurodiverse beings in the world.

    And it would be good for the rest of us if you stopped imagining that you are, and claiming some kind of higher disability agenda. It cuts no ice with me if you can't 'get' my problems. It just goes 'I am what I am, and I am no part of a neurodiversity movement, I'm better than that'. That's unhelpful. See? If you can't do Down and epilepsy and learning difficulties and cerebral palsy etc, you can't claim to be part of an organisation which claims to represent you.

    Just say, clearly, that neurodiversity only matters when it's about YOU. Just so we other lesser mortals understand. Right?

    OK?

    By Blogger Barbara, at 7:23 PM  

  • Barbara and Timelord

    Let's do reflective thinking meaning that some choices are better than others but there may be times where we are wrong and we may have to reevaluate and we may need to reflect. I'm good at reflecting but I can overdo it so I need folks like Barbara and Timelord to tell me when to stop. This is why we need many different kinds of people. We need folks like barbara and we need folks like timelord. We need folks like me as well and ABFH and David Andrews.

    Maybe in certain contexts or subsets it's black and white but when we go out of these contexts and into more supersets it becomes grey.

    Maybe there is a third way besides black and white or greyscale. Who knows?

    My opinion is we as individuals should not only make our movement better but make ourselves better as well.

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 8:55 PM  

  • How do you think in greyscale anyway? If I'm going to make myself better than I need to learn this ideology.

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 8:57 PM  

  • QUOTE Clay, Ari isn't helping enough when it comes to the lower-functioning part of the spectrum, as he doesn't push for therapies that would remove disabilities for the lower-functioning.

    @Luker
    Maybe he doesn't push those at opitions because as someone on the "red" or "high" fuction scale that isn't his pergotive, thats theirs. Maybe instead of pushing therapies you could start advising alternative ways to communicate and let them make the choice weither they want to have therapies.

    Ari isn't better than anyone. We've called him out and tried to educate him as to the facts about autism.@ForeSam
    He knows the facts of autism, all autists do. And in my personal opition, he is better than some negitive speaking hater. I rather listen to the words of someone that says "I'm a person" than "I'm a tradgey"


    He might not even be aware of the why he disseminates the propaganda that he is engaged in. We can't help cure him of his illness if he won't talk to us.Lol cure his illness I wish we can cure you of your bigotry. But I've learn not to shed tears for lost causes.

    Look I have no problem with moms and dads that want the best for the autistic sons and daughters who do ABA theraby and gluten free diets. Its the ones that invade the lives of others that want to live a life without faking normalacy. And say we're hurting others with our shouts that "WERE PEOPLE NOT PUZZLES" maybe they would be happier if we're slient and we accepted to be molded into what is an accepable human.

    By Blogger NightStorm, at 8:57 PM  

  • Night, then because Ari's priorities are due to his position on the high end of the spectrum, he shouldn't simply call himself an autism advocate or his organization the autistic self advocacy network. He should then specify in all of his dealings that he is high functioning and is advocating for the high functioning.

    And he should stay the fuck out of the cure issue for the lower functioning. There is no alternative communication. Facilitated communication will help hardly anyone. It is absolutely not fair that many on the spectrum deeply lack basic abilities.

    By Blogger lurker, at 9:21 PM  

  • I believe that Ari calls himself an "Asperger's Autistic", (which is fine with me, and I suppose I am too), and I know his advocacy is for the benefit of everyone, not only those on the spectrum, but for anyone who is "neurologically diverse" or "developmentally disabled". We've joined forces with other disability advocacy groups on several issues. It's all the same fight - for civil rights.

    It is absolutely not fair that many on the spectrum deeply lack basic abilities. ~

    Who shall we blame for that - Ari? Better you should blame your mother, for not knowing how to raise a man. Or are you a man? I really don't know, you're such a phony! What Dx did you get from your psychologist recently?

    By Blogger Clay, at 10:15 PM  

  • "Timelord, prove to me it's my choice."

    Hey Crespy Creme, are you a human being? If you are then you have a flaming choice!

    By Blogger Scratcher, at 12:20 AM  

  • Clay, what the hell does "neurologically diverse" mean!? What is it that you "accept" about it? The longer I look into that excuse for what those like you advocate, the less I see about it. Here you just were complaining about laurentius rex for him being the way he is. What is it that you "accept"? What is there left as a pretense to advocate to keep mentally disabled individuals disabled?

    Why not blame him? What does my mother have to do with this? I wish I didn't have a gender. I think it's a burden being male. Why don't you ask about my father, as he should have had a role in how I turned out? I wish an ounce of his prosperity had been received by me. Anyway, don't shift the topic to me. You want to ambush and ridicule me as you know you have a great chance at exposing my moral/personal flaws to weaken the credibility of my views about myself.

    You won't stick to the topic of society as it pertains to disparities in abilities as you can't really justify applying your repressive ideas to innocent people. What makes you such a great tough man, when it's you, a healthy grown man, that goes on here and attacks what's best for innocent mentally disabled children and other people who can't really fight back. I should ask you about your mother, and your father and your sisters; about how they tormented you as a child, and how that motivated you to sadistically do the despicable shit you do on here. You don't have any stake in this as you don't have any impairments!

    I don't know if I received a diagnosis from my psychiatrist. At the recent appointment to get the paperwork filled out for a potential vocational program, I basically just dropped it off with him for him to fill out during other time. My mother basically dominated that brief appointment and not a lot was said.

    By Blogger lurker, at 1:56 AM  

  • Scratcher, why don't you try to just be a little cogent for once? Who are you even? Go back to scratching Phil's craphole and your crotch.

    By Blogger lurker, at 2:00 AM  

  • Lurker said:
    Clay, what the hell does "neurologically diverse" mean!? ~

    Are you so addled you don't know how to google?

    http://leftbrainrightbrain.co.uk/?p=840

    Here you just were complaining about laurentius rex for him being the way he is. ~

    You needn't concern yourself with a personal matter. He and I have the exact same opinion of you, (and many, many other things as well).

    Why not blame him? ~

    Um, because he had nothing to do with how you were brought up?
    Because he isn't "preventing" you from doing anything to improve your situation?

    What does my mother have to do with this? ~

    I suspect because she "gave in" to your teenaged drama queen-like histrionics. I can imagine you screaming "I deTEST" -, and "I abHOR" -, and "That's horrIFic!". Jesus H. Mulroney, you bulldozed her with you screeching and whining. Anything to shut you up!

    I wish I didn't have a gender. I think it's a burden being male. ~

    I suppose you think that's "horrifically unfair" too. Yeah, life's tough, especially for weenies like you and Mitchell.

    Why don't you ask about my father, as he should have had a role in how I turned out? ~

    You already told me about your father, and I resolved never to divulge or use anything you told me in private emails against you.

    I wish an ounce of his prosperity had been received by me. ~

    Like I told Mitchell the other day, "Wish in one hand, shit in the other..."

    Anyway, don't shift the topic to me. ~

    But, you keep interjecting yourself!

    You want to ambush and ridicule me as you know you have a great chance at exposing my moral/personal flaws to weaken the credibility of my views about myself. ~

    Um, run that by me again. Do you mean in others' minds, or your own?

    You won't stick to the topic of society as it pertains to disparities in abilities as you can't really justify applying your repressive ideas to innocent people. ~

    What "repressive ideas"? That disabled people should have the same human rights as anyone else? That autistic people shouldn't be selectively aborted because their parents want a "perfect child? That it's wrong for quacks to invent "cures" like Secretin, chelation, Lupron, HBOT, clay baths, creams, and even invent new "disorders" so they can "treat" them, and make a bunch of money?
    Those quacks know there's "a sucker born every minute", and they know how to scare parents who've learned their child is (gasp) autistic.

    You don't have any stake in this as you don't have any impairments! ~

    I've been autistic for nearly 63 years. I've been bullied, taken advantage of, been made a fool of, been cuckolded, have had a damned hard time remaining employed, have had countless misunderstandings, big and small, haven't had any "relationship" with anyone for a really long time, (but don't really want one), and about a hundred other things in common with other Aspies/autistics. Don't try to tell me that I don't have a stake in this.

    I don't know if I received a diagnosis from my psychiatrist. (snip) My mother basically dominated that brief appointment and not a lot was said. ~

    A MAN would take control of his own life! You're 25, geeze!

    By Blogger Clay, at 4:36 AM  

  • Lurker, apart from the name calling Scratcher was cogent and then some. Everyone has a choice. Even you.

    By Anonymous Anonymous, at 5:25 AM  

  • Clay, I don't want any phony references that never resolve anything. I don't care what the two of you think of me. Try not to miss the point about what a hypocrite you are. I wonder just what neurological diversity is approved of by you when you just criticized someone for being the way they are, which is determined by their neurological ways. And meanwhile, you try to get others to accept the condition of being severely mentally challenged in the name of neurological diversity.

    I think those like Ari should be blamed for the lack of success of others as he has a disproportionately higher amount of mental capacity, which makes a much greater amount of success possible for him out of the overall mental resources available to society. If he had it his way, there wouldn't be any research that could lead to cure for those who could greatly benefit from it.

    Oh so what I whined as a teenager. I was doing what a whole bunch of the other suburban youth did and do. I don't care. I don't care what she thinks either. She's been a lunatic and a whiner herself for a long time. Anyway, I still would wonder why you would be so fast to blame only my mother for the attidude of mine that you dislike, when you already knew about my father.

    Oh sure. Nothing's unfair. I'm not entitled to anything. I guess I should just submit to my superiors, be grateful they allow me to do or experience anything, and be their loyal and obedient servant. What do you mean interjecting myself? Why do you and the others start talking about my personal affairs? "Um, run that by me again. Do you mean in others' minds, or your own?" I'm not sure. Maybe mine and theirs.

    Virtually nobody involved in this issue is arguing against human rights for the disabled. There isn't really any indication that individuals involved in this issue advocate selective abortion. Don't pretend you side is so innocent and genuine as if they have only benign intentions. That doesn't explain or justify why your side vilifies parents who don't want their children to grow up illiterate, dependent, and hardly able to communicate and do basic tasks, and belittles the psyches and intentions of those who want a cure for the mental disabilities that come with their autism.

    I wonder why all of those things happened to you. You once told me you can read facial expressions, body language, and tonal inflections, probably better than most NTs. So you haven't had relationships in a long time, and you didn't even want one. This sounds nothing like lack of capability. I am perplexed as to what the basis of your impairment is.

    Well, I can't get in control. I can't help it. I can't function at the level of a 25 year old, while I lack skills that children have. I shouldn't have to explain fundamentals of mental disability to you if you really have a mental disability yourself. I wish a lot that I was in control of myself, and I would be doing a lot of things with myself, as adults do, if I could.

    By Blogger lurker, at 5:51 AM  

  • Anonymous, stop discussing pieces of arguments out of context and with no elaboration. Who are you fooling?

    By Blogger lurker, at 5:54 AM  

  • Oh well time for a little light relief

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HVQrpok9KPA&feature=related

    Enjoy..
    Before Monty Python, was beyond the fringe.

    I have had cause to cite Dr Jonathon Miller before, in his alternate capacity as a popular commentator on neurology.

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 6:40 AM  

  • And if that is too much then there is always this and this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i2TicMbH4OY&feature=related

    or this

    http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eE7Fe1cGLPk

    just to demonstrate that pleonasm is not always neoplastic :)

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 6:55 AM  

  • Clay, what the hell does "neurologically diverse" mean!?

    Seriously, Lurker. Do you actually believe everyone's brains and minds would be exactly identical if it weren't for disease?

    Biology doesn't work like that.

    By Blogger Joseph, at 8:21 AM  

  • Not really Joseph, and I don't know what your point is.

    By Blogger lurker, at 8:24 AM  

  • Billy I have many disfunctions as well. I have major problems with organizing and planning. It's not as easy for me as you think it is. I have problems with inertia. There are days I have difficulty functioning at all. Billy, you're not the only one on the planet who has difficulties.

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 8:29 AM  

  • Virtually nobody involved in this issue is arguing against human rights for the disabled.

    @Lurker: When people like Harold Doherty say that autistics belong in institutions unless they get some specific treatment, he's absolutely arguing against the human rights of autistics.

    According to Michelle Dawson:

    "There are some people, like autism parent Harold Doherty, who are hoping to reestablish institutions where they have been closed, at least for autistic people."

    By Blogger Joseph, at 8:31 AM  

  • There is no alternative communication. Facilitated communication will help hardly anyone. It is absolutely not fair that many on the spectrum deeply lack basic abilities.@Lurker
    I’m not going to speak for Ari anymore, but I do believe he is genuinely helping the entire rainbow of the autistic spectrum. He is Red ended, but that doesn’t mean he doesn’t want those that are “purple” ended to have the right to choice their own therapies or lack thereof, or which method they want to communicate, whether be ABA, sensory integration, acupuncture, or something else entirely.
    Which is the bottom line, THEY should have the rights to choose what they want, if they want a cure if they don’t want a cure if they want to communicate with a computer or with a token board, or sign language, or with pictures. Which physician they want, if they wish to get behavioral therapy or not. Who will be assigning to be their home-caregivers, if they want to live in a group home or independently, IT SHOULD BE THEIR CHOICE. I am behind their side wanting equal rights for ALL autists. So THEY can choose what they want. Not the constantly grieving moms and dads who mourn the loss of the child that never will be, not the nay-sayers who have this dismal look on the spectrum and have this gloomy outlook on the spectrum and play this imperialistic game that we’re the “Savages” that must be educated.
    And how is FC not helping anyone? For parents it’s a relief! Finally a window into their child’s world to see through their eyes, to finally say what they want or need, a reward to something that all parents of autists want, to finally understand. Maybe it’s horrid fact it’s not help the nay-sayers who say it’s a fluke. When really is no placebo effect unlike chelating, gluten free diets and oxygen pods which are all based on confirmation bias and placebos. Maybe it’s the fact that FC autists reveal all the horrid truths that they witness such as abuse from ABA therapists, parents, caregivers and teachers. Maybe it’s the fact that they are now on our level and we can no longer patronize them or pretend that the NTs know best.
    Why are you against the idea that Autists are more than tragedies? Why are so against the idea that we’re all little fucked up in the head, and we just want to be heard? Neurodiversity is about EVERYONE having a say not just the therapists, doctors and parents. But everyone.
    At least that’s my view. I believe some treatments are not helping and money for those treatments should be spent on finding alter-communications.

    By Blogger NightStorm, at 9:18 AM  

  • Cube, then I hope you think of some ways to get around those obstacles.

    Joseph, I don't think anyone wants autistics to be in institutions at all. When they supposedly favor that as you imply, they're only emphasizing that many autistics will end up there as it is highly difficult to care for many of them on the severe end of the spectrum and to keep many of them out of institutions. Many of the parents who can't handle their children after they grow up for various reasons, aren't happy at all to put them in institutions and group homes.

    Parents advocating certain therapies just want their children to have a better chance at not ending up in institutions. Those parents worry about how and who will care for them when the parents eventually won't be capable of doing so anymore. Not only are arguments such as yours desperate, they're also damn disgusting.

    By Blogger lurker, at 9:32 AM  

  • Night, if Ari wants others on the spectrum to have the right to choose their therapies, then he shouldn't advocate for actions that would limit what therapies will be devised. Ari going against cure research is not reconcilable with favoring the right to choose whether one wants a cure or not. Who is going to make many of those choices before those children are old enough to make the decisions?

    Nobody who is severely mentally disabled wants to settle for second-rate forms of communication or to reside in group homes, if there are better options available. Curing them of mental disabilities isn't depriving them of choice, but it brings choice to them about what out of many things they want to do with themselves. Not as many choices of activities are available with mental impairments. Having capabilities is never unwanted.

    FC doesn't help all of the non-verbal. Of course FC would be a help when the child types. But the situation where some facilitator or whatever has their hands/fingers hovering over the fingers of the child who supposedly is typing, is verging on outright fraud. I don't think the autistics who use typing to communicate necessarily are going to say whatever pleases you, such as your fantasies about the abuse that comes with ABA. What about autistics who lack not only speech, but language capabilities too. Don't confuse autism simply with speech disorders or the lack of capacity to talk. If one lacks language capabilities, I don't see how communication isn't hindered.

    By Blogger lurker, at 9:56 AM  

  • It is a case of "Damned if you do, and damned if you don't" out here in the Wild West and I think I am not being unfair if I criticise the level of the debate, as typifying more of a Punch and Judy knockabout than a serious scientific or sociological one.

    The lines in the sand have long been drawn, so just who are we all persuading, you might as well get some entertainment in, so I don't think my Monty Python citations are out of context at all.

    Take Ari Neeman. A PSA is not going to give you very much of an idea who, or what he is, and what he is doing. For a generation that regards soundbytes as portentous, what can I say ??

    If I say how wonderful the PSA is I stand accused of mindless idolatory, being a slavering neurodiversity groupie.

    If I express some criticism of it I am accused of defaming the great leader, disloyalty and having my own personal agenda.

    You can't win.

    Apart from anything else, PLEASE - the spectrum, was, is an analogy it was never meant to carry the debate it does.

    To begin with it is a stale flat concept, and any two points that seem far apart from one direction can be close together when looked at from another.

    Spectrum is a word that can carry a vast number of alternate connotations beyond the stereotypical projection of a band of light of differing wavelengths, it can be a palette of colours, a rainbow, or one of Clive Sinclair's creations.

    FWIW it is simply a latin word which Newton employed, meaning something that is looked upon.

    The reason why the colours are described as they are is not because of any scientific accuracy but because of the significance of the number 7 in Newtons Alchemical synthesis of belief, socially determined in effect.

    But then I don't want to be accused of dabbling in the Illuminati archives to give you that little gem.

    http://users.skynet.be/lotus/colour/colour0-en.htm

    So put that in your indigo pipes and smoke it

    By Blogger laurentius rex, at 1:48 PM  

  • Nobody who is severely mentally disabled wants to settle for second-rate forms of communication or to reside in group homes, if there are better options available. Curing them of mental disabilities isn't depriving them of choice, but it brings choice to them about what out of many things they want to do with themselves. Not as many choices of activities are available with mental impairments. Having capabilities is never unwanted.First. You speak "Cure" like there is one. Placebo effect look it up. Second you ableism is showing. You're doing "Poor poor savages, let the civilized while, male neurotypicals teach you how to be like us." rhetoric and it's agrvating.

    Why is picture communication, sign language and FC now considerd 'Second rate'? Wow thats kinda ableist. Would you tell a deaf person to go get a cocheal implants and say that lip reading and sign language is second rate? .... scratch that you probably would

    Third you assume, you assume too much. Yes there are purple autists that might want a cure. It's their choice they are free to make their own discsions. The point is it's not the non-autist discison. If they want to live in a group home thats their choice, it's not a horrible one if they know the enviroment and trust the staff, routine is importiant thing.

    stop gestualiting based on your own personal bias as an abled person.

    By Blogger NightStorm, at 3:11 PM  

  • Night, cure has to be looked for first. That doesn't have a lot to do with whether it should be done or not. There's no ableism from those who push the truth about disability. Don't trivialize racism by saying "civilized white" in comparison. Males are predominantly the victims in this condition. It's disproportionately women who want the horrific disability associated with this condition to remain intact. So which gender is hurting who here?

    Not as much complex communication can be done with sign language and with pictures. FC with typing is a lot better. Not all of the non-verbal can rely on that either. If they can learn those types of languages, what is stopping them from learning written language? I hope those like you allow choice. And allowing choice includes not stepping in the way of cure research. I have no personal bias as an abled person as I am highly mentally disabled.

    By Blogger lurker, at 3:32 PM  

  • Billy, if you hope I think of ways to get around my obstacles then why can't I hope that you think of ways to get around yours.

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 3:34 PM  

  • Billy

    People here have been trying to help you. Why have you been dishing insults out?

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 3:37 PM  

  • Billy, you were being a bigot yourself by calling David a shit eating faggot.

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 3:37 PM  

  • Billy

    Timelord, David, and Clay were right. I cannot help you at all.

    You've have to want help first before you can get help. I don't know what the deal with you is but treating others like shit will get you the same courtesy. I'm just letting you know this.

    1. If you're having all these problems like you say you are then why did your school let you out of special ed?

    2. How did you even get these jobs you had in the first place?

    3. How did you make it through college and reading the textbooks at all? The lectures I just tuned out and stuck to the textbooks.

    4. What did you major in college?

    5. Billy, why didn't the psychiatrist talk to you and your mom together. I don't understand.

    By Blogger Cube Demon, at 3:54 PM  

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